Since starting up with DD a while back, and watching while my books went from zero to top 100's, I also started watching my stats. I started to analyse the status-quo as it is on the DD. I noticed quite a few interesting things, which, on reflection, I realized apply to life in general.
To apply the Socratic method…why is Del Monte canned corn more popular than, say Price Chopper's Store Brand? Is it taste? I have eaten both and notice no real difference. Why should Charby the Vampirate be a top rated book when there are a lot of books on the DD which have, A: Better Art and B: Better Story? It's a mystery, or is it?
I call it the 'Glass Ceiling' effect–or more to the point, Status-Quo Inertia.
It takes Six things to break into the top rankings.
1. Longetivity–ya gotta be there first and dig in.
2. Productivity–ya gotta have the mostest.
3. History/Reputation–are people talking about you?
4. Networking–ya gotta kiss a few toads
5. Publicity–ya gotta promote yourself
and lastly (but not least important) it helps to have 6. Talent and Product
If you can package all these things you are on your way. However even these things are not enough to get on top. You need a few more things–which must come from outside yourself. You need:
1. Incumbancy–ya gotta convince everyone else you're the 'Big Dog' From this comes
2. Publicity Skewing. DD does it everyday. How do you knock Charby out of the top spot, when everyday on the opening page, there it squats like a mallignant tumor. All seven hundred strips waiting for an unsuspecting newby to bite the hook and slid in a few more page hits! And that is…
3. The unwitting help of the masses.
Just a little food for thought!
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Comic Talk and General Discussion *
Breaking DD's 'Glass Ceiling'
You've got some valid points there, and I do agree with that list of yours. There is a lot more to getting a top anything rather than just pure talent. Networking and promotion are a big part of anything becoming popular. I mean, just look at something like Snakes on a Plane. If the thing hadn't been hyped up so much, I doubt it would've gotten nearly half of its popularity.
Although I don't see how attacking Charby the Vampirate really works in your argument. I thought Craving Control was on the top, along with Elijah and Azuu? I agree that Charby and Elijah and Azuu have been on the top 5 for a very long time, but look at Craving Control! It certainly wasn't here first, and it's gotten to the top 5.
Nice thinking, my man.
I sense hostility towards Charby, but I think the creator -is- quite talented in being able to keep up as long as she has. That takes some skill.
I think it would help if DD got more specific pages than just 'Horror' and 'Manga'. And why not a way to -customize- what top ten and recently updated comics come up?
That way, you could choose who gets on the top anytime.
I take issue with your list, and more specifically your attack on Charby. Most specifically I take issue with the Publicity and Networking, from what I've seen most of the "Networking and Publicity" surrounding CTV has been Fan Made. From my observations Amelius has avoided self promotion.
I think you could have worded your post a bit nicer or at least more middle of the road than you've made it sound. I agree that it reads like you Dislike Charby.
I agree with Mazoo that there are other comics that have been in the top listing for a long time too, why didn't you mention them?
If you're going by the toplist (which probably isn't the best resource) to understand popularity at DD, there's actually a knack to getting ahead there. Pinky TA is currently rated as #2 comic on DD overall and has been for a week or two; a fact of which I'm quite chuffed. :)
I know it won't be there for long though, the fall will happen very soon, gradually, at least at first. That's because there are other comics that have more cache that are now promoting more or being updated more; like Hero By Night for example, or Craving Control. These will replace Pinky TA once again sooner or later. Then there are others like The Gods Of Arrkelaan, Purgatory Tower, Ethos, and more who are solid stayers.
If you want to get popular (and stay there); Do quality work. Engage with your readership. Update regularly. Update frequently. Promote. Increase community awareness. Have a product that is reasonably accessible to a broad amount of people.
You won't knock Charby of the ladder unless you have a huge blitz on promotion and even then Charby is in a class of its own. But don't begrudge Amy that, she's worked damn hard on her comic to get where she is here at DD.
If you want to get popular (and stay there); Do quality work. Engage with your readership. Update regularly. Update frequently. Promote. Increase community awareness. Have a product that is reasonably accessible to a broad amount of people.
Or you just draw a redhead with a gigantic chest.
You know it's true.
Totally, categorically untrue. She could be a blonde or brunette too.If you want to get popular (and stay there); Do quality work. Engage with your readership. Update regularly. Update frequently. Promote. Increase community awareness. Have a product that is reasonably accessible to a broad amount of people.
Or you just draw a redhead with a gigantic chest.
You know it's true.
1. This phenomenon of envying the top spot amazes and frustrates me.
2. I also don't like to see Charby singled out, even though I don't read it regularly enough to have a distinct opinion about it yet.
About the first point, while I realize that being in the "top spot" will invariably grow one's readership, beyond that, what's the big deal? Is this simply competition gone amuck? This is a community, is it not? Since the top spots will change in time, why begrudge those who are there? I find such envy personally unbecoming because it is the opposite of what I've come to appreciate about DD: the nice people and the ability to voice different ideas and get to know fellow artists.
Whether one gets 150 pagesviews from a regular readers who love the comic or 250 total pageviews, with 100 coming from first time link-clickers from the front page, isn't the idea that the comic is being read and enjoyed?
I never much liked popularity contests but that seems to be some of what this is.
About the second point, whether it's Charby or Craving Control, I think it's silly to single out a comic and put it down just because it holds a position that someone doesn't think it "deserves." That is simply a matter of opinion. It does nothing to endear me to anyone else's comics, either. Instead of tearing down someone else, I think people should do more to promote their own comics. That would be much more interesting.
Dueeast is right. Although everyone has a fantasy of having the "next big thing", most of the product out there just isn't going to make it. Take my comic, "Tales of the Revenant", for example. It's black and white. It's set in the past. It in a pulp genre. All of those things "specialize" the comic, making it appeal to a narrower range of folks.
All that said, I'm proud of it, and it is dang fun to do.
I think the thing all of us need to ask ourselves is "why am I doing this?" There are some forums already asking this question, and very few answer "to be the next big thing!". Heck, to fulfill your webcomic goals, you may not even be interested in being in the top list.
I blame the stats.
We like the stats because when our numbers go up, we feel a certain amount of satisfaction. They also help us determine what people enjoy reading.
We hate the stats because there's always someone higher than us in the ratings. Of course, there's always someone lower, too…
I do admire the original poster's attempt at analysis of why top webcomics are….top webcomics. Not having any data is like running in a race….without knowing which way to run. Or where any other runners are.
Attacking Charby isn't going to earn any points, though. It's a bit too much like whining.
Understand, Charby just got the, um, spotlight, because of its spot. Honestly, while I don't particularly like the book, I certainly have nothing against it. Also I am not craving 'top spot' (well, okay, maybe a little) but in fact I was simply pointing out some of the issues that everyone in life faces–from the middle managers at IBM to a new canned corn trying to make it in a market saturated with DelMonte. I have come to realize that probably the most important issue one faces in beating the 'glass ceiling' is "Incumbancy" In fact, it really has to do with 'Control of Resources' At DD, the Primary 'Resource' as with any entertainment venue, is 'Marque Space' If you control the margque space, you will control your time at the top, because you are effectively controling the resources. Your book is instantly visible, your ratings stay inflated and so you continue to dominate the resource–incumbancy. Some months back DD switched from the Browser Page listing the newest comic post to posting the top rated books as a default. Once again–resource control. No one wants to click down ten pages to see a new book, so the old timers with top ratings simply get to squat on the top resource! I love DD by the way, and I respect all the creators who strive their best here. Just so's ya know!
I knew it, sooner or later this was gonna happen. Again.
ipokino, what is it you have against me? I'm so upset right now I'm shaking and it's making it hard to type. I am grievously insulted by your accusations and maligning.
I already have the self esteem of a rotten apple and I bet you feel really big knowing you made the horrible troll who dug it's heels into the top of the list cry.
First off, I didn't "kiss any toads" to get where I am on the list. I didn't advertise my comic anywhere. I don't think my comic is good enough to promote. Didja read that? Even I don't think the attention it gets is fair.
It was simply word of mouth. I work VERY hard to get my pages done. i don't take breaks, and most of all I don't post filler pages. Why are there so many pages? because I used to do it everyday. EVERY SINGLE DAY. This comic is 4 years old now, why wouldn't it have a large archive? You make it sound like I inflated my archive just to get more readers. BALDERDASH. Absolute tripe! Did you even READ any of my comic before you judged it so harshly? I mean, not just skimming through pages with a furrowed brow and that bitter bile of "oh I can do better, they can do better" rising up within the pit of you?
ipokino, your comic has only been updating since March. 3 MONTHS. Mine has taken 4 years to get where it is now. Obviously, you have absolutely no patience whatsoever. There's no need to pick on me because you think your 3d rendering program is superior to my hand drawn /photo shop colored art. Maybe it helps also that my audience isn't limited to "adult" and "mature?" I have an age range of readers from 10 to 50 years old. Yours only permits 18+. Do the math there pal.
You know what helps? Just DOING it. Whining about who's on top isn't going to get you there, it's only going to make you look whiny. I could whine about my hand hurting every day, or people treating me like crap in the forums, but I don't.
YES I am aware there are better comics on here than mine. I didn't ASK for it to be there, I didn't suck up and kiss butts to be there. It just happened. I'm doing my comic because I enjoy it, not to win some stupid popularity contest. I'm not in middle school anymore. By the looks of it neither are you.
"Squats there like a malignant tumor…" I say sir, that is MOST unkind of you.
Calling my fans "unwitting masses" was about the lowest of low, and for that any respect I would have had for your argument has shot down the tube. How DARE you call my friends "unwitting"! what absolute nerve! Insult me all you want (and I'm sure you will continue to do so, you are obviously devoid of tact and common courtesy to even start a thread "behind my back", neglecting to think I might actually care about what the community at DD has to say)but leave my readers out of this. They read it because oh…maybe they LIKE TO. Nobody told them that I'm some art goddess that needs to be catered to. DD never gave me any "handouts" (See Volte6? this is exactly the attitude I was talking to you about at the convention. This is why I'd rather be off the front page so people don't feel it's their given right to "knock me off the high horse" so to speak.)
You know what ipokino, you are wasting your time. If you're only making semi-nude female 3d rendering comics to get on a bloody top 5 list, that's really sad. I draw my comic because I enjoy it and obviously some other people are enjoying it too. Guess what? I wouldn't be upset if someone took the top spot! In fact I encourage it! I want to do something special for the person who knocks me off!
Have you ever seen me plug my comic on the front page? in the forums? Brag about my page hits, my favorites count? Announce my milestones, or the fact that I'm doing free fanart/cameos (out of comics of my choice at this point, otherwise I'd be flooded and lose track of them all)? I DON'T like calling attention to myself when I don't feel I deserve it!
And tell me, what would YOU do in my position? I know I get a lot of traffic, so I've been ADVERTISING FOR OTHER COMICS FOR FREE. Get that? FREE. There is nothing nicer than hearing back from someone that my plug (plus a cameo mind you) has increased their readership. I sincerely doubt you'd do the same.
Here, let me give you a list of stuff that ACTUALLY works:
1. Draw your comic, and improve on it.
2. LISTEN to your readers. If they don't like something, don't pitch a fit, fix it.
3. TALK to your readers. Nothing is worse than an author who ignores everything their readers say. Communication is very important to any relationship. I always answer pq's, emails, questions (though it takes me a while because believe it or not, I'm busy)
4.Don't pander to what you think fans want. Give them something NEW.
5.BE NICE to people. Not "fake nice", be genuine with others. Use TACT. A little simple human decency will go a long way. Picking on girls in the forum won't.
6.Don't waste your audience's time with a bunch of filler. They want a story, not a scribble of you hastily working on the next comic. People HATE that. They rather wait than have filler.
7. Don't slack off. I spend 8-12 hours working on my comic page. Ahem, working on 4 different comic pages is more like it. Straight. No breaks, no food, no rest, just work. Even when I am sick. Would you sit at the computer worried about throwing up on the keyboard, but keep working?
8. Don't treat your audience like they're idiots. (and don't you DARE insult my readers again ipokino! That was dirty, lowdown and rotten)
9.Actually work hard on your comic and never settle for just "okay". I know my pages aren't always the best, but your work had better look bad in hindsight rather than "it's good enough for now". I NEVER settle fot "good enough for now". If I'm not convinced that I did my page to the best of my current ability, then I'll start over.
10. Character development. Nobody cares if your characters are hot & sexy if they have the personality of a raw potato. Give them some motivations, some feelings.
11. Give people a good impression. Blasting comics just because they have the misfortune of being placed on a "pedestal" that they don't deserve is most unbecoming. You could have spent this time posting about the merits of your comic. instead, you chose to come into the forum and talk trash about another comic, and make wild and ridiculous claims about the author of said comic. Real nice of you!
My comic isn't just "popular" because I "have the most" or I've been promoting and advertising (because I certainly HAVE NOT). It's because I listen, I care about my readers (notice how I don't refer to them as "fans")I go out of my way to communicate with them, and I always am working hard on IMPROVING my work. That said I don't whine about my pages when I update them either. And not everybody reads the entire archive. The art is horrible back there! (it's not 700 pages either, it's 690). You have no idea how many people seem confused by something in a new page because they didn't bother to read those before it. And I certainly don't act too big for my britches either. am I coming in here with some big art-snob attitude "you don't know who I am and my comic is there cuz it is good" bull crap? Do I brag about my top spot? When I went to a convention for the first time, I didn't tell ANYBODY that my comic was most read on DD. All I care about is that people read it and enjoy it. I don't care HOW MANY. I get emails from people who were depressed that I helped out somehow (I was depressed and suicidal about a year ago myself) and people who are fighting in the war telling me that they are enjoying my comic. I don't look at people as "numbers" and "stats" like you do. I look at them as PEOPLE that I care about. And I do my comic for them, and for myself. Doing it for any other reason is pointless. I don't even have a job, I don't drive, I don't have my own place, just because I dedicate my time to working on my comic! I'm pale and underweight! Don't YOU feel good about insulting me because my comic is on the top list? Oh yeah, that means I'm horrible scum-sucking trash and should therefore be exiled from drunk duck, just because a lot of people read my comic. That obviously shows that I can't write or draw! People don't read comics they like, they read comics that they are told to like! Wow!
Think of it this way if you will, since you prefer analogies that slam my life's work and me: my comic is like a dessert item on a table with big hearty meals. People that want a sugar buzz will go to my comic. People that are hungry for more will go to the other comics.
Having your comic up for a long time, I admit, helps. But if you really think I "got here first" just to be on the top list, then you really need a reality check. I'm writing a story and I don't tell it in 3 to 4 pages. I have 64 recurring characters and stories for all of them. I don't waste my time talking about other comics in the top list and who can do better than them (I even defended Craving Control, of which I'm not a big fan personally, which a lot of people were saying the same things about)
I suggest you help out those other comics you think are "better" than waste your time with ridiculous "theories" and claims to knowing how to "get to the top 5 in 20 easy steps!". Spend a little more time on your OWN comic before you decide to criticize mine so harshly (though not terribly unfounded that it's not the best but LEAVE MY READERS ALONE). If I was the terrible kind of person you think I am, I could have very well just sent my readers over to give you hell. You'd love the page hits at least, right? Good thing for you I'm above petty attacks and abusing my "mighty powers, whoa!" to get what I want. Because you know what I really want? People to stop making ridiculous claims about me, and laughable theories about how I got to the sacred top spot on DD. You want it so bad? TAKE IT. It is NOT the grand achievement you think it is.
And to all that defended me, thank you, it meant a lot to me. It's nice to know that some people realize I have feelings.
Sorry…took so long typing (it's hard to type and convulse at the same time) that you already replied. I apologize if any of the above is..well y'know. I can't type quite as eloquently when I am suffering an emotional breakdown thanks to this.
But my position still stands that my "position on the top spot" STILL does not make it target bait for you to insult me and my readers. I take greater offense to you insulting them than to insulting my comic. Why don't you look at it as an example of "if she can do it so can they" instead of begrudging my *ahem* "accomplishment".
And whether you say you have nothing against it or not, the words "malignant tumor" speak VOLUMES of your opinion. Don't type stuff like that if you "have nothing against it" just to make yourself look better. I'm not stupid. You think my comic is a disease on the mind.
I love DD by the way, and I respect all the creators who strive their best here. Just so's ya know!Unless they do that crappy Vampirate comic!
Ahh dear.
After reading Amelius's grievances, all I'm going to say is this: why would you WANT that top spot? Look at all the negativity that comes with it for her. In my own comic's history, I've noticed that the more fans I have, the more troublesome they are, and Amelius has to deal with tons and tons more than I ever will (i guess?). Just the other day I saw her defend her own art style against people who repeatedly accuse her of mimicking someone else…What actual good comes from having so many people around, picking at your flaws? And argh, personally I'm just as frustrated with the POSITIVE aspects. Fans end up superficially raving about the comic, remembering all the parts you thought were stupid but they love. It's a nuisance.
Yes, part of me wishes I could have more viewers and gain more publicity, but would it be worth the little ego trip I'd get out of it?
Grah. *hugs Amelius*
Having any sort of popularity will automatically attract people who will dislike you for it. The comic could be completely, utterly flawless, and people would still freak out about it, just because it's #1, so people perceive it as a threat of some sort. There's a mentality that popular things are open season, no matter if it's a comic, or a movie, or a brand of dish washing detergent. Unfortunately, it's just one of those things that comes with success. Consider it a compliment that someone cares enough about your comic to make a thread bashing it. =p I don't think it's really worth having a mental breakdown over.
Ok, as Sub says; it's time to take it down a level.
Volte has already indicated that ipokino has brought up something worth considering because like it or not: popularity here at DD is something a lot of comic creators obsess over.
His use of Charby as an example was injudicious, but not something that everybody needs to attack him for, because if you're talking about the subject of success, that's something Charby is synonymous with here. His worst sin was the use of the phase "malignant tumour", which was frankly idiotic in this context. But everyone who upbraids him for this, mostly ignoring the rest of what he's said as well as everyone else who as posted is even worse (apart from Amy since she's personally affected), the effect is of a howling mob!
Ok, divorce any mention of Charby the Vampirate from his post and it is something truly interesting and very much on the mind of many people here at one time or another. If you can't do that this thread is getting locked!
-In fact I might start editing posts here. We don't need a mob mentality here at DD.
I agree with silentkitty about not letting it get to you, but I can sympathize with Amelius' position. Not only did she and her work get attacked but her fans did, too, and she naturally feels very protective of them. That's admirable and I respect it.
For what it's worth, Amelius, *hugs*
Hi, I'm Lynn of Marital Bliss???
We (I say we, because I make comics with my husband Ethan, not because there are voices…) are relatively new to the webcomic scene. Last year we decided, come heck or high water, we were going to make comics and we started doing it. Right now we only have one out there, well okay two…But, only one gets any kind of time devoted to it and that's MB. Anyway…
Right now, we have MB (Which we are trying to make a living from) But, all our barrells aren't there…I'm writing three different half-drawn comic books that are gonna' rock…I have assigned myself to the "Welcome" forum and I make myself post at least one "contrabution" a week to the forums at random…I try to comment on several comics and I am really trying to be a part of this community.
But, it ain't easy.
I quickly discovered the "politics" behind the webcomicking industry…and yes, it IS an industry and Yes, it IS political.
Right now, we are only on Drunk Duck and MySpace. (Although, I have the obligatory, Buzzcomix and ComicSpace…) We chose to focus on one "community" and we chose Drunk Duck…because; it was the most user friendly, we liked the "feel" of the community and honesly, because of the opportunities we can forsee with Platinum Studios…if you produce a quality product, it seems like they are willin' to TRY and help…(Although, I also see a lot of pandering to the, for what ever reason…"Cool Lunch Table) I can't begrudge them thier dues… (Although, it is annoying to see people that don't keep to their promised updates, with only like a dozen comics–dominating the scene, you only add to their stats by bringin' attention to it…Eventually people will wise up and quit paying homage to the likes of that calibur of comic.)
A lot of time goes into this stuff…I spend hours a day and I can't fathom a daily publishing schedule, so kudos to them. (We hang in the upper 60-80's for comic strip and in like 200 overall) But we only update once a week and honesly, have a limited audience (the word 'Marital' in the title, kinda' cuts our fan base in my opinion.) But, that's cool…when we finally do "publish" our mainstream comics and can afford some graphic novels and the like, it seems like (if you can come up with the scratch to get there) DD will let you use their table at conventions, regardless of how "Poopular" you may be. (Although, I don't really know if this is true…is it?)
I have to admit though…Sometimes, it is disheartening. The DD Beauty "Contest." No contest at all and really was a disappointment to us; the invisible heirarchy that I have yet to unravel; the occassional blatent rudeness of people "in charge." Being ignored totally…But, I'm hangin' in there and if you love your comics you will too.
I have realized the need to maybe be involved with more than one community, last night I opened an account on Comic Dish (Wow, what a dish…not quite as user friendly…but, oh well…that's why I picked DD in the first place.) Although, I don't intend to do anything different here, I really like Drunk Duck and I'm in 'till we give-up comicking…Although, I don't give up easy!
Lynn addresses the nub of the matter. Anyone who posts after this better realise this or their post is gone.
-We've established the remarks about Amy were dumb, but so are you if you continue it! Amy has had her say and that's all that needs to be done.
Follow Lynn's lead or else :)
Sorry, my intention wasn't to join any type of "howling mob", just offering an opinion. :/
To stay on topic, then:
From my experience, one of the most important things you can do if you're concerned about your rank is simply to advertise. I don't necessarily mean spend $50 a week on advertising, or even any money at all - get yourself some business cards and hand them out, go to conventions and talk to people, get your friends and family to read your comic, make a signature that links to your comic and use it on every single forum you post at. Just get your name out there any way you can.
There's tons of resources at your disposal, but for some reason, people seem to have this weird mentality that somehow advertising is "cheating" and they rely solely on word of mouth to get their comic out - which works, don't get me wrong. But people have to know about your comic before they can start talking about it.
On the flip side, advertising your head off won't do any good at all if you don't have a product worth advertising. You can get a thousand people to click on an ad banner, but if they get to the comic and it's complete crap, or it hasn't updated in two months, or it's full of filler art (page coming soon, I promise!), they're not gonna come back and you've lost any hope of getting returning traffic - as well as the potential for them to tell their friends about your site. Nobody's gonna say "hey, Joe, I clicked on this ad and it brought me to a mediocre comic site, you should go check it out!".
Very few people end up with success overnight, especially on a site this huge. In my opinion, the best thing you can do is just love making your comic. If you don't, and you're just doing it for popularity, or an ego boost, or to make tons of cash, there's a high chance that you'll be extremely disappointed.
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