Thread "Fortune Tellers and their craft..." in forum "Comic Talk and General Discussion *"

Posted at 2:07PM, Jul. 12, 2007

The psychics? Well… if they are legit, they really should have seen it coming.

LOL!! I love how people automatically assume that an psychic has to be super-human and all-knowing.

Guess what? even those who are "gifted" is still only human, and doesn't always know EVERYTHING. They're not god after all. They can't always see everything in the future. Even for psychics, the world can still hold surprises.

Sometimes it's not con-artists and phonies that gives the people in the "supernatural" business a bad name, it's guys like you with your baseless assumptions that: psychic=All-knowing and superhuman.

I don't like to share this very much, but… I've had a few personal experiences where I would dream things that would actually come true. like one time I dreamed that one of my friends got into an horrible bike accident, coming out of that with an blood-drenched arm. this was like the night before my 16th birthday… and then on my birthday, there was some complications with the setup of my party and stuff.
So instead of waiting around for the party to start, my friends randomly dedices to go for a bike ride. At this time, I didn't really think of my dream as seeing I just dismissed it as an nightmare.
But guess what? Everything happened exactly as it did in my dream, which of course freaked me out.

So I had a psychic experience but it didn't make me all-knowing, because the dream didn't show me how exactly it would happen, just that there was an accident. So even if I could had prevented that accident, maybe it would had happened regardless in a way I couldn't had foreseen.

I believe in such things because I had personal experiences. However, I'll admit that there's plenty of disreputable people out there who would exploit those beliefs.

Posted at 4:07PM, Jul. 12, 2007

Yeah, people are probably a little psychic… I've had some dreams that have happened, Some times I know whose ringing me, what movie would come on TV the next week on a certain night (before it had appeared in the TV guides), and this one was pretty cool: I put four CDs in my CD player, set it to random and just "knew" which song would come up first; And it did!
That's happened a few times… Even randomising a few thousands MP3s on my computer.

But in my experience it's unreliable… not that you ever get it wrong, it's just that you can't count on being able to "know" all the time, in fact that feeling doesn't happen that much. When it does you're sure and you're right, but you can't "make" yourself right or do it when someone asks, it just happens sometimes.
And that's what studies bear out: Slightly better than chance. People take that to mean "sometimes they just guess right more than usual", but what if most of it is just guessing (1 in 2 chance), but a small part of it are true events? That would jibe with my experience.

As for the sort of Psychics on TV or that read palms and stuff… Yeah it's a load of crap, that's obvious. But it's buyer beware. If people are willing to pay for it, let them! It's what they want. Jebus, we allow religions to encourage people to believe mad stuff and it's OK for people to squander their fortunes on stuff like Scientology! I think fortune tellers are much more harmless than groups like Scientology.

Posted at 4:07PM, Jul. 12, 2007

As for the sort of Psychics on TV or that read palms and stuff… Yeah it's a load of crap, that's obvious. But it's buyer beware. If people are willing to pay for it, let them! It's what they want. Jebus, we allow religions to encourage people to believe mad stuff and it's OK for people to squander their fortunes on stuff like Scientology! I think fortune tellers are much more harmless than groups like Scientology.

I'm glad you brought that up. I kept thinking about it. You obviously read my mind! ;)

I can't recall if you're in America or not, but Televangelists bilk people out of millions each year and it's notoriously hard to sue them even with evidence that your "donation" didn't go where it was supposed to.

An aside: http://www.modemac.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/Psychic_Predictions_for_2007
I think I'm addicted to reading these things now. Thanks a lot, stupid internet.

Posted at 5:07PM, Jul. 12, 2007

Yep! So this is exactly why people shouldn't dismiss all psychics as phonies and such.

After all, the future is not set in stone… it's made up of different outcomes that comes from choices and random quirks in time that occurred, such as some things randomly happening.

So it could be said that an psychic merely sees some of those possible futures, but it could easily change the minute that the psychic tells the person involved what's going to happen. Because then the person involved would start to change his/her typical path for the day/week whenever subconsciously or consciously, thus changing the future. And then when the said event didn't come, then the person would go "Hey, that psychic's a phony!!"
But if that said person had not been informed about his/her future, and continued things just as they were…. maybe it would had happened the way the psychic foresaw…then maybe that psychic isn't such a big phony after all.

Life itself and the future is made up of so many variables, that like Ozoneocean said, that it's not really wise to depend on looking into the future as an method constantly. So this is the sole reason why the "Psychic" business is intended to be only for entertainment, even though occasionally they might give you some important information about things that could happen very soon.

This the very reason why I say that psychics are only human and not "all-seeing" nor "all-knowing". This is why it disgusts me when somebody completely ignorant of how it works, goes: "ROFL!! psychics should had seen it coming!! I guess they're phonies after all!"

After all, real psychics wouldn't claim that they can see EVERYTHING that goes on in your future… they would tell you that they would tell you about POSSIBLE things that are most likely going to happen in one of your many infinite futures.

Just think of it like Time-travelling…. you travel back in time from the future, but there's no Guarantee that if you stayed in the past to see how it would progress, that the events in the past would all lead to the same exact future that YOU came from. After all, the future you came from as an time traveler would be only merely one of the now possible futures.. so in a way, it would be like you came from an alternative time-line.

I hope I didn't confuse anybody…

Posted at 5:07PM, Jul. 12, 2007

OK, I don't believe is Psychic phenomena. Maybe I'm just not psychic, so I've never had an experience that would show me otherwise.

But I have lots of friends who say they are psychic. But they all stress - as people here have - how unreliable their gifts are. If I challenge them and say "well, let's use your psi powers to do this or that" they say "It doesn't work this way."

OK, let's assume that they are right - there really are psychic gifts and talents, but they don't make you superhuman, and you can't just use them when you want, to do whatever you want. They are flashes of power and insight that are "given" and out of your control.

Well, that *still* makes professional psychics sound like cheats to me. If I had a special talent that I could not control, then I don't see how I could charge money up front for a session where those talents might show up… but probably wouldn't.

Posted at 5:07PM, Jul. 12, 2007

Well, that *still* makes professional psychics sound like cheats to me. If I had a special talent that I could not control, then I don't see how I could charge money up front for a session where those talents might show up… but probably wouldn't.

But not everyone who reads cards or does palmreading, etc, claims to be a "professional psychic". And people who DO claim to be perfect psychics are either exceptionally gifted and attuned to their ability to be psychic(which is extremely rare and the people probably don't publicize, seeing as it's migraine-inducing stuff), or full of shit and shouldn't be taken seriously(more common, and more likely).

Everyone is psychic to a point- dreams that come true, knowing who's calling before you answer, predicting TV episodes or movies, etc. People who read tarot know how to trust their natural intuition, and study a long time to understand the cards. As a matter of fact, tools like palmreading(There's actually a science to it) and tarot cards are TOOLS, to help trigger the natural psychic..ness…of people. That's why fortunetellers charge- for the service of using their tool to get a result.

Posted at 5:07PM, Jul. 12, 2007

Well, that *still* makes professional psychics sound like cheats to me. If I had a special talent that I could not control, then I don't see how I could charge money up front for a session where those talents might show up… but probably wouldn't.

That's why a lot of people should be wary and do reserech into a certian pyshic before buying that pyshic's services.

But you know, there's alot of pyshics that has been trained, who were the real deal.

otherwise how do you explain those unsolved police cases that the cops couldn't just crack on thier own for years, that was suddenly cracked by some pyshic that was brought in to help? All those unsolved cases being cracked by pyshics couldn't had been sheer pure luck.

There are some that say that the real reason why some people who has pyshic ablities were so that they could help people who were in need, and that thier ablities only come to them when they're in an situation where they're really needed.

Which would explain that every time I had an dream that came true, it inolved an situation where I could jump in and be helpful. or an situation that had to do with me. like in the case of my friend's bike accident, I actually used an sweater-jacket thing of mine to bind up her arm not only to stop the bleeding, but to keep her broken arm from being any worse than it was before. when she was taken to the hosptial, the doctor there said that it was a good thing that I did what I had done otherwise she would had lost way too much blood.
So maybe I had those sort of dreams because I was needed to do something vital in such a situation to save somebody. No matter how small it might had seemed at the time.

But again, who knows. I'm not speically trained in this sort of thing.

Posted at 6:07PM, Jul. 12, 2007

I do feel uneasy when people say "Everyone is psychic…" because there's a veiled criticism there, don't you think? There's an implication that we're all psychic, but some of us are just too stubborn too admit it, or too slow witted to notice it, or something.

I don't think anyone is in a position to know that about anyone else. I mean, maybe I'm wrong about psi stuff - I've certainly been wrong about other things. Perhaps I have a big surprise coming my way. But even if some people are actually psychic, that doesn't mean I'm psychic, does it?

I feel comfortable saying that I've never had a psychic experience. I'm pretty sure I would have noticed something like that.

Posted at 7:07PM, Jul. 12, 2007

otherwise how do you explain those unsolved police cases that the cops couldn't just crack on thier own for years, that was suddenly cracked by some pyshic that was brought in to help? All those unsolved cases being cracked by pyshics couldn't had been sheer pure luck.

Shoot some links our way on that. The stories I've read about psychics in police cases usually could be explained (or, unfortunately, many times hurt the case).

Posted at 8:07PM, Jul. 12, 2007

I do feel uneasy when people say "Everyone is psychic…" because there's a veiled criticism there, don't you think? There's an implication that we're all psychic, but some of us are just too stubborn too admit it, or too slow witted to notice it, or something.

I don't think anyone is in a position to know that about anyone else. I mean, maybe I'm wrong about psi stuff - I've certainly been wrong about other things. Perhaps I have a big surprise coming my way. But even if some people are actually psychic, that doesn't mean I'm psychic, does it?

I feel comfortable saying that I've never had a psychic experience. I'm pretty sure I would have noticed something like that.

Oh no,I didn't mean to imply that. What I mean is, some people are able to undo their social and cultural programming to see that they're psychic, or are able to notice it better. That doesn't mean other people can't. It's impractical to believe that people can see, hear, perceive something that isn't with our main five senses.

It's not a matter of intelligence when it comes to understanding our inherent psychism, it's a matter of not explaining it dismissively. How many times have you known a friend to be upset, depressed, or someone in your family to be in agony emotionally? Or had a bad feeling about how a day was going to go, and then something bad happened? We're taught that these things aren't real, or have nothing to do with being "psychic". A lot of kids believe in magic, psychic stuff, and it's not until other people tell them these things don't exist that they learn to be skeptical of these things.

So it has nothing to do with intelligence. It has to do with how we're conditioned in life. Maybe you don't have the same talent or gift that someone else has, but in itself, that's not a negative thing. It means your gifts are elsewhere, and you contribute to the world in another way.

Posted at 9:07PM, Jul. 12, 2007

otherwise how do you explain those unsolved police cases that the cops couldn't just crack on thier own for years, that was suddenly cracked by some pyshic that was brought in to help? All those unsolved cases being cracked by pyshics couldn't had been sheer pure luck.

Shoot some links our way on that. The stories I've read about psychics in police cases usually could be explained (or, unfortunately, many times hurt the case).

Yeah, I can see how it could hurt an police case in some instances, so I'm not going to argue with that.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/forensics/psychics/index.html

This link explains it all well and also lists plenty of cases that was solved by psychics that the police couldn't solve on their own. (as well as some cases where the phony ones led people now-where). and you know this link is good since it offers an balanced view of it… from both the side of skeptics and from the side of "believers".

beware though, there's a lot of chapters that you'd have to browse though. but it's still a intersting read.

Posted at 10:07PM, Jul. 12, 2007

beware though, there's a lot of chapters that you'd have to browse though. but it's still a intersting read.

That's fine by me. I love true crime. Thanks for the linkage.

Posted at 10:07PM, Jul. 12, 2007

chapter 8 is espeically intersting.

In 1980, Etta Smith, a shipping clerk in Los Angeles, heard an announcement on the radio about a house-to-house search for Melanie Uribe, a missing woman from her neighborhood, as documented in A&E's film and Larsen's Psychic Sleuths. Smith had an impression that the woman was not inside a building but outside in a certain area, and though she'd never before had such an overwhelming sense of something, it seemed so vivid that she reported it to the police. "It was like someone was talking to me," she said. She felt that the nurse had been hit in the head and dumped in a canyon, which she showed to a detective on a map. She said there was a dirt path going to her. When he seemed not to take her seriously, she decided to go have a look on her own.

As Etta drove through the target area in Lopez Canyon, she had a feeling of "urgency." Spotting some tire tracks in the dirt, she felt them and sensed the trauma that had taken place there. "It was like a thermometer going up." She got back into her car and drove, but her daughter told her to stop because she'd seen something. What she had spotted were a pair of white nurse's shoes.

Smith knew who was there. She drove away and spotted a policeman. She waved him to a stop and told him about the body. He told her to go home. She did, but then two detectives came to bring her in for questioning. She agreed to take a lie detector test, and the police later said that she'd been judged "deceptive," so she was treated as a suspect, strip-searched, and put into a cell for three days. They planted an undercover cop in the cell with her to try to find out why she had come forward and whether her information had come from neighborhood gossip, as suspected. The cop reported that her motive was money.

Then three men confessed and Etta was released. She filed a wrongful arrest suit, asking $750,000 in damages. The jury awarded her $24,000.

She says she never had another such vision, or if she did, she was smart to not report it.

Posted at 4:07AM, Jul. 13, 2007

Fortune telling, whether remotely accurate or not, is actually a form of witchcraft. Hopefully, in your conscience, you remember way back when and you just knew it was wrong to be messing with demons, because that is where the tellers get their influence from. See 1 Samuel 28 for more info.

Posted at 12:07PM, Jul. 13, 2007

Fortune telling, whether remotely accurate or not, is actually a form of witchcraft. Hopefully, in your conscience, you remember way back when and you just knew it was wrong to be messing with demons, because that is where the tellers get their influence from. See 1 Samuel 28 for more info.

Well, Divination tends to be related to witchcraft, but it's actually a separate thing. And, we're not "messing with demons". I don't know many experienced people who even acknowledge the existence of "demons", much less "play around with them."

(speaking without permission on behalf of Witches and/or fortunetellers) Thank you for your concern, though, I understand where you're coming from. I don't think there's any way I can convince you that we're not dealing with demons here, and you're not going to convince me that we are.

Posted at 4:07PM, Jul. 13, 2007

Fortune telling, whether remotely accurate or not, is actually a form of witchcraft. Hopefully, in your conscience, you remember way back when and you just knew it was wrong to be messing with demons, because that is where the tellers get their influence from. See 1 Samuel 28 for more info.

congratulations. you just went and insulted every pagan/wiccan there was…. as seeing as they have as much as an natural aversion to Demons as much as Christians do. They do not worship Satan or any other demon as you would think. Instead, they basically worship THE SAME THINGS THAT CHRISTIANS DO, they just have a DIFFERENT name for it and a different method of worship.
For instance–they believe that the one powerful ruler of the universe (in your case, god), is in fact an Goddess. They follow the same golden rule as Christians do (treat others good as you would like to be treated, with forgiveness and love). So when you think about it, it's basically the same stuff just wrapped differently.

And even then, not all fore-tellers/psychics are wiccan/pagan. I know several psychics that ARE CHRISTAN, AND THEY BELIEVE THAT THEIR GIFT WAS SENT FROM GOD TO HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, SUCH AS HELPING POLICE OUT ON CASES WITH KIDNAPPED CHILDREN! So yeah, you just insulted Christan psychics who were trying to do good. How could their gifts come from demons when they're doing a lot of good with it? Therefore, it has to come from above.

Posted at 6:07PM, Jul. 13, 2007

And even then, not all fore-tellers/psychics are wiccan/pagan. I know several psychics that ARE CHRISTAN, AND THEY BELIEVE THAT THEIR GIFT WAS SENT FROM GOD TO HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, SUCH AS HELPING POLICE OUT ON CASES WITH KIDNAPPED CHILDREN! So yeah, you just insulted Christan psychics who were trying to do good. How could their gifts come from demons when they're doing a lot of good with it? Therefore, it has to come from above.

They mostly argue, the demons would make these people do good things to mask the evil that's supposedly pervading their lives. At least, that's the excuse I've seen every time I've tried to engage someone who honestly believes that this sort of thing is wholly evil.

There's often no arguing with people who are convinced stuff like tarot, palmistry, or astrology are achieved through working with demons. I don't know many pagans or witches who believe in demons, and those that do don't tend to feel that daemons(spelled differently) aren't evil, but they don't use daemons OR demons for stuff like fortunetelling. Meh. Like I said, there tends to be no use arguing, because people aren't going to change what they believe just because it offends someone else.

That's true on both ends of this. :3 Not gonna change what I believe, neither is joeychips. As he's entitled to his beliefs, I'm not gonna push him any further on the issue.

Posted at 7:07PM, Jul. 13, 2007

They mostly argue, the demons would make these people do good things to mask the evil that's supposedly pervading their lives. At least, that's the excuse I've seen every time I've tried to engage someone who honestly believes that this sort of thing is wholly evil.

Heh. I guess in a way that could make sense if such things were used by people who could easily be influenced by interior moves.
That is, unless the people had only good things happen and only did good things…never actually did any evil at all.
So if those same people never sinned at all in the traditional sense, and had NO INTENTION to then how could they be influenced by demons when they still continue to use their god-given gifts only for good, even in their own privative lives?

But of course that's just me.

My problem is not with Joeychip's beliefs and such. In fact I applaud him for having such firm beliefs.

However, my problem is with how he words his posts. Every time he posts, it seems as if he's preaching his beliefs and shoving it right down our throats. (which can be very rude). And he also words things in a way where he basically could easily insult people out there even if he probably didn't mean to. Like how he said: Witchcraft=demons. When a lot of wiccans out there and other such people, doesn't use or get the aid of demons as you said. In fact most wiccans would be repulsed by such a idea.

Posted at 9:07PM, Jul. 13, 2007

Aurora, trust me, I know. But, it's part of his belief system to think that witchcraft= The Devil. And, that stuff like fortunetelling is entirely witchcraft. He's entitled to his beliefs, and unfortunately, they're gonna conflict with people who practice witchcraft, AND people who do fortunetelling. Personally, I'd rather he be able to insult and offend people, then to have to worry about his ability to say offensive things being taken away from him. If his opinion is that Fortunetelling is evil and demonic, then he can say so.

'Cuz the day he can't, is the day we sacrifice freedom for the sake of other people's comfort level.

Posted at 11:07PM, Jul. 13, 2007

you're right of course. But he still has to expect the consqences of saying things that might be offensive to other people.

For instance, saying something like "See 1 Samuel 28 for more info." is basically telling everyone to go read the bible of an religion that they may not even believe in. He should have condisered the fact that not everyone here is the same religion as him, or may not even believe in the bible competely.
So of course he should expect the consquences of people complaining to him about his posts.

people have the freedom to say anything they wish, but to not be held responsible for anything they say is just plain silly. you get me?

He's free to express his opinions, just as I'm free to express the fact that I'm offended by half of the things that he posts.

Posted at 6:07AM, Jul. 14, 2007

I've never met a fortune teller, but I've had a few encounters with "magicians".

"Is this your card?"

No.

"Is this your card?"

No.

"Is this your card?"

No.

"Is this-"

It's not my card, so shut up.

Posted at 4:07PM, Jul. 14, 2007

For anyone interested in this topic, I highly recommend "Why People Believe Weird Things" by Michael Shermer. He discusses, using controlled experiments, how many of these psychic and other supernatural events happen every day.

We humans have successfully evolved so far because we have looked for and found patterns in the world. Thing is, we're also very prone to over- and underestimating those patterns. People remember that dream or premonition that came true!! …and forget the thousands upon thousands of dreams and premonitions that never did anything. And we're not very good at fundamentally understanding statistics either. Very unlikely events happen every day. Something that would happen to one-in-a-million people happens 5,000 times every day around the world (since there are roughly 5 billion people in the world). So the fact that an unlikely event occured is not enough to label it as a legitimate psychic or supernatural event.

There is a one million dollar reward, bonded by "The Amazing Randi", to anyone who can demonstrate a supernatural event. You would think any one of the psychics who are good at their craft would jump at that chance. But the problem is no one can ever succeed past statistical likelihoods. Try predicting a coin toss, and you'll find that you probably get it right roughly 50% of the time (maybe a little better, maybe less, depending on that particular time). And no psychic has ever done better than the expected 50% (give or take). No psychic has ever done better at any other prediction better than the expected statistical likelihood.

Like I said, I highly recommend "Why People Believe Weird Things" by Michael Shermer. It's an excellent read.