'demeaning women' is overrated. If a comic supposedly does that (IMO, the above comic has nothing demeaning. In fact it portrays women as beautiful and capable creatures) there is a big big fuss.
What about demeaning men? Wheres the big fuss about that?
Gender equality? Anyone?
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Comic Talk and General Discussion *
Is nudity a bad thing?
NOPE.
Actually the attitude you express demeans women more than any other: it says they they are inferior and must be treated like children, protected and cosseted from real life because they're fragile and unable to take it. Not one inch of their naked flesh should ever be shown because their entire sex is lessened in value each time…
People should try examining that idea and explode it for what it is: Overprotective patriarchal, control. Keep the womyns covered, unseen and feeling dirty about their bodies! :P
Not healthy. ;)
No, no, no, no…no how can you be more ignorant…it's not the nudity it's what the way they are portrayed. They are portrayed mostly as objects of desire and nothing more. You don't want to be with her or even just hang around her. They're being sold as sex objects. That's why it demeans women. It doesn't has to go around and deal with whether they show skin. It's like music. You have a song that's very loud and sounds very punk, but is really talking about teddy bears, flowers, and everything nice and happy, it will still give the sense that this is a very bad song. Humans tend(oh boy is this an overstatement) generalize. We take in the big picture and nothing else. This also why we are mostly bad listeners. It's hard to learn how to actually listen we take it for granted but that's neither here nor now.
As for being fair about exploitation of men it is because the men are not objectified normally sure they're suppose to hard core and bad ass and all that bullocks but that's something different. Especially for what is normally considered here in the states a very male dominated entertainment. I don't know but those first couple of pages do seem very demeaning. Really I don't care about the comic, it's not my type of story(though nice artwork especially the coloring) Honestly though I think most feminist will agree with me. They tend to have a stand against pornos and exploitation.
Actually the attitude you express demeans women more than any other: it says they they are inferior and must be treated like children, protected and cosseted from real life because they're fragile and unable to take it. Not one inch of their naked flesh should ever be shown because their entire sex is lessened in value each time…
People should try examining that idea and explode it for what it is: Overprotective patriarchal, control. Keep the womyns covered, unseen and feeling dirty about their bodies! :P
Not healthy. ;)
I sort of agree and disagree–the patriarchy is a problem, but I don't think pointing out the way this comic objectifies women inherently means someone is implying that women are inferior. Similarly, if someone's around you talking up a bunch of racist junk, arguing with them doesn't mean you're racist for "assuming racial minorities can't defend themselves." I know a guy who considers himself a feminist and tells his girlfriend not to use the word "bitch" to refer to other women, and I think that's taking it a bit far.
I don't think women need me to defend them, but I also don't think they'd object to me saying something when I'm uncomfortable with how they're portrayed in this or that. It's how I was raised. Happy medium, kind of thing.
As much as I hate to use South Park as a piece of evidence, there's a scene in their Paris Hilton episode where teenage girls are having "slut kits" of clothing and sex-related items sold to them and Paris Hilton's made into a role model. One character objects and says they're letting themselves be objectified, and is immediately berated for being sexist. "If a man wants to have sex, it's cool, but if a woman wants to have sex it's 'WRONNNGGGG'" they say, as teenage girls rub their buttocks against his groin and beg him to buy them things. He relents.
So all I'm saying is there's a key distinction between women who are proud of their bodies and their sexuality and women who think it's the only thing that makes them valuable. Because that IS demeaning, and does hurt people, and I've seen it do so.
Besides, as long as we have posts like this:
'demeaning women' is overrated. If a comic supposedly does that (IMO, the above comic has nothing demeaning. In fact it portrays women as beautiful and capable creatures) there is a big big fuss.
What about demeaning men? Wheres the big fuss about that?
Gender equality? Anyone?
Feminists would have to be silly to refuse any help ;)
For Kyupol
yes and that is wrong.
For the original question
There's nothing wrong with nudity just as there is nothing wrong with violence when done with taste
For ozoneocean
there's nothing wrong with someone realizing "hey I'm hot and I'll show the world it." In fact it has been done well in the Spirit reboot with the P'Gell issue.
But here's part of the problem
and more fiction
it's just gets incredibly silly and excessive.
interesting note…more of a horror or spoof of the topic
Read Jonah Hex vol 2 issue 26
There's always a middle ground, anything can be taken too far though. It's important that we don't either become part of the extremes or find ourselves only reacting against extremes.
ie: An image of a vagina or naked breast does not inherently demean anyone, but there is a context to be considered.
exactly why are we even debating?
I'm not saying everything should be prudish but doesn't mean it should be used to the excess degree. That's my main point. But I don't any women that would let a strange man(cept a doctor) grope or even walk in front of them naked.
Really it has nothing to do with the nudity but how it is portrayed.
i hate nudityI love it.
it's just a crutch for weak story telling.
even those that just do partial nudities or "butt shots".
weak authors use those to keep the audience coming back.
I love to see it in a comic ^_^
It has nothing to do with weak or strong authorship, rather it's what the author likes to look at themselves and often what an audience likes to see as well.
A weak author would be one who bowed to pressure of some kind and changed their work accordingly. -in this case that'd be to remove the exposed boobs ;)
-But in other cases it could lead to someone showing MORE nudity…
The thing is, the author should stay true to their own vision and not be turned by the foolish preconceptions and underdeveloped, overprotective sensibilities of others. :)
it really depends on the creator himself and whether the audience will enjoy it. I think the guy knows what is his audience…also I wonder if there was even an actual letter and maybe this whole thing was just faked so he can get more visitors…conspiracy! Answer the Question Montoyaa! Answer that Question!
You know, I have a lot of words and passion about this, but it all boiled down to one thing.
It's fiction. Nothing more. No weight in the real world. It shouldn't have any weight in the real world, and dragging it into the real world in any sense, positive or negative, only makes you look like a fuckwit. In the real world.
You know, I have a lot of words and passion about this, but it all boiled down to one thing.
It's fiction. Nothing more. No weight in the real world. It shouldn't have any weight in the real world, and dragging it into the real world in any sense, positive or negative, only makes you look like a fuckwit. In the real world.
Fortunately, this is the internet!
I don't care one way or another, frankly. Which is not to say I don't have an opinion on the matter, just it seems one of many meaningless things in life to be concerned of. I look at a work of a master like Frazetta and say deal with it. Being restrained under a veritable million pointless 'oh god please don't offend me or my sensibilities' taboos is no way to go through life. It's bad because you say its bad or its appropriate because you say it is. Does the problem physically hurt someone or damage things beyond perception? Does it kill someone? No.
The universe does not care.
Or wear pants.
Nudity, violence, obscene language and explicit sex … none of them are strictly necessary in a comic (or any other story-telling medium) but they've always been there and, as a part of life, they will continue to be so for as long as people continue to tell stories.
I work on the basis that I use them as little as possible, but that's not because I don't want to offend prudes and potential hate-mail scribblers. It's because I want them to have more of an impact when I do. When I think it's right to show nudity or have characters speak in expletives, I do.
I know many people in some parts of the US (and elsewhere) do have a low tolerance threshhold for nudity, so - to avoid offending people unnecessarily - I preface my comic The Spires (which has a fair bit of nudity in it) with a warning about the content. If people read on after that, it's their choice. It seems to me you've done much the same thing by categorising your comic as "Mature" and so I really don't think you can be held responsible for the reaction of someone who chose to read on, notwithstanding. It's your story so keep telling it the way you want to.
The fact that this thread exists = Society is stupid.
No animals wear clothes. How are humans any different? The only real uses clothing has is protection and expression. It protects us from extreme temperature and allows us to express ourselves via our appearence. But if it's not cold? And if someone would rather express themselves via nudity? Then they should be allowed to not wear anything.
Clothing as a means of covering our bodies because it is somehow "Evil" to be naked? Fucking retarded. Yet again, another reason why humans should go extinct to give chameleons a chance to evolve.
America a police state? lololololololz
As for the sexism, yes, both genders are portrayed negatively, and it's bad in both cases. Unfortunately, the government goes overboard with trying to protect minorities, and ends up screwing over the majority.
I, personally, advocate an umbrella "No discrimination" law, that simply says that if someone thinks they're being discriminated agains in any way, they can take the offending party to court for it.
Wow, I leave for a couple hours and come back in the morning to find this. What a great debate. :D
Seriously though, I think I can agree with a lot of the points brought up here from both sides. I just want to quickly throw my two cents in.
I think Ozone makes a brilliant point about female nudity for some reason being more sacred than male nudity. I also think TH89 has a point with his post about, well, the flip side of the argument.
I personally think there is nothing wrong with any nudity under the right context. I mean, if you're so hard up that sight of a nipple drives you mad, then you have some issues. Nudity in and of itself does not constitute porn. But when nudity is used as a form of titillation, then it becomes exploitative. Again, I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that, but it's not the sort of thing that anyone should defend as art.
Of course, this is merely the opinion of one male among a population of many.
As a woman, I enjoy your comic.
I enjoy and encourage BOTH nudity and pornography.
I love seeing a woman in skimpy clothes bearing what she naturally has.
Seriously. It's like covering up David with that leaf.
Some people have way too much time on their hands to be offended.
People have the RIGHT(they forget about this) NOT to read what they don't want to read.
People have the RIGHT NOT to see what they don't want to see.
If you're clicking through the channels and land yourself in the Pulp Fiction rape scene, you don't write an angry letter to Tarantino. You freaking change the channel.
I was born nekkid, I'll die nekkid.You will. They take off the memorial clothes before they bury you.
That is all.
The fact that this thread exists = Society is stupid.
No animals wear clothes. How are humans any different? The only real uses clothing has is protection and expression. It protects us from extreme temperature and allows us to express ourselves via our appearence. But if it's not cold? And if someone would rather express themselves via nudity? Then they should be allowed to not wear anything.
Thank you, for providing us with the the elementary school theory of "Animals do it, so it's okay!". Animals also shit on the street and pee on things to denote ownership. I don't think it's a good idea to set your moral compass based on what you see on Animal Planet.
Yay for Shplane and Mecha! :)
Man, I'd be naked around my house, on a hot day… if I didn't mind having my bare bum sitting on the furniture lol!
Actually, drawing characters naked, or semi-naked is more fun and much nicer than doing clothes: you get to show the beautiful shape of the body. Why do you think almost all superheroes wear their silly tight costumes? It was a way to draw them easily, and attractively, essentially stark naked, with only some lines to denote where various items of "clothing" start and stop and where the patterns are supposed to be.
In a scene, one of the characters, Bianka, takes a nasty blow from a sword and her armor is destroyed on her right arm and chest. Being this is set in a fantasy world and back when underwear wasn't a way of life, Bianka's breast falls out.
Sounds like the line Madonna delivers in A League of Their Own:
"What if at a key moment in the game my, my uniform bursts open and, uh, oops!, my bosoms come flying out?"
Yeah, if I read your comic and that happened, I'd be turned off by what I would perceive as exploitation of nudity.
Is nudity a bad thing?it depends on who is Nude!
YIKESSS!
I have always believed that the unseen is more allureing than the seen.
the Mystery of the female form is much more Intriguing when there is the right clothing on.
For my art work…I set the nudity bar at Maxim Magazine levels.
They have it down to a science.
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