Whoa! Who brought up the Space Marines? That's like lambs to the slaughter! One squad of those guys could wipe the floor with an entire army of Medieval -> almost modern army (fluff wise anyway). A company could just turn the planet into mush from space.
CC, using Fascist and Fair in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Or that is what I have seen from history anyway.
Also, when one group is fighting to seize land to live on it is far more likely to be a war of extermination than a "Hey, make room for us too!" kind of war. Though I suppose it depends.
And if this army isn't trying to exterminate those in their way then their chances of victory go right out the window. Why? The longer they stay the more likely it is the Harkies get their tech, once that happens their advantage disappears (especially if the Harkies find ways to replicate and improve tech, which the Golta and Lel may be able to do… and the Darsai might get energy AK-47s!). And if they aren't trying to exterminate with a doctrine along the lines of the "Shoot on Sight" method then that allows The Speaker to get close to someone important… after that it's all over for everyone.
Plus, these invaders would need some kind of base and manufacturing area in order to replenish ammunition and other materials.
Still, the invaders would also have a surveillance advantage. Even if the Harkies got the modern weapons.
Also, would the invaders suddenly get magic too? They would have their own culture and they would be living in Harkovast…
The other problem is that extermination is difficult, time and material consuming, and will effect the moral of the soldiers. Contrary to the lessons of some points in history most soldiers probably have a conscience.
So, extermination is the only way to be sure of victory but it might also destroy you. It's like a catch 22.
The attackers also suffer from the problem that they are in someone else's land trying to take over. They will suffer casualties even if they can completely dominate in pitched battle warfare. These casualties will come from guerrilla warfare and assassinations. This will happen even with a doctrine of extermination, maybe even more so because of one.
And remember there is still the Nameless and the KITW to deal with. If the attackers wipe out people on Vellastrom they will have to face an enemy that doesn't stop coming until you destroy their power base. Then the good guys will have to build ships, submarines, and more planes to attack the West. And magic may very well have an advantage on the open seas (Giant sea monsters, rogue waves, etc). Even an army of 1 million would be spread pretty thin.
And if the Nameless do get AK-47s then the new invaders better be willing to share their tech with everyone else or they will lose. Nameless with AKs could just convert everyone and then completely overwhelm even a modern army of 1 million (they would run out of ammo eventually).
Oh and PS, now I have this image of the Speaker looking enviously at some fellow with a megaphone and thinking "I want one."
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Harkovast- the forum
The Golta
Space marines could win even in the face of magic. I mean, they can take out mighty warp demons! What would a puny mage be able to do in the face of a Librarian's knowledge of warpcraft or a Dreadnaut's twin-linked lascannon?
Not much.
You can have a fair fascist environment. Everyone suffers equally. This assumes the leaders allow themselves to suffer on the same level as the lower class, which normally wouldn't happen. We are making a big assumption here. But hey, there's already magic, so why not fairness?
With humans, it would probably end up as a war of extermination anyways. We don't like things that are different. We don't even like humans that diverge from the norm, so xenos like these? CLEANSE PURGE KILL!
Even if they don't kill everything, it would be a matter of forcing their beliefs and culture on the enemy, which does work… you just need to destroy their previous culture which is very difficult. The level of technology in WW II era weaponry MIGHT be able to be duplicated by highly sophisticated, tech magic races… but then again it might not. The Bessemer process allowed modern steel to be forged, has that been discovered? Has black powder been discovered? You description of pyronite makes it sound like inefficient blackpowder, so they MIGHT be able to glean how to make the highly refined stuff used in WW II… but, then again, maybe not. Parallel technologies need to also be discovered, or duplicated with magic to make pretty much any of the weapons and craft used.
I already mentioned a stable portal leading back to the home dimension. That would serve as a way to get new tools, I guess, but let's make it hard for them!
I mentioned civilians along for the ride. Let's assume that they brought tools for setting up a war factory to function as a repair bay and munitions factory. The soldiers would establish a base on arrival. (With ease, I suspect. They would arrive in numbers through a portal to a people not prepared for an army of a completely new race) As they travel, they would capture new, useful materials to send back to the base. Perhaps they would build airships, as the races of Harkovast have to flak cannons? Certain races might be able to shoot them down anyways, but something would be arraigned to safely get materials back. Sources of iron, coal, and whatever else the factory needs would be sought out and taken.
If they had satellites, their surveillance would be even better, and pretty much unstoppable! (I wonder, does the Speaker's power transmit over radio/television? That would be interesting.)
If they suddenly found they had magic, they would surely find ways to augument their already huge advantage. That would be fun to find out, and probably mean that, if it is possible, more people would come through the portal (civvies and soldiers both) just for that. And since humans aren't all one culture, it would be chaos.
Extermination is only difficult if you think of your enemies as people. If they are as I originally described them, they would be unable to just kill everything. If they are like the Imperium, however… They would not only enjoy killing everything, they would be required to.
Glad I put that image in your head. That's what I was thinking, too.
Space Marines can kill Eldar and Chaos. They can kill panda mages too… probably. Again, we don't know exactly what some of the Harkies can do.
Fair Fascism is Farcical Fantasy. Alliteration of the day…
While I'm not exactly an idealist when it comes to human nature (Phht, idealists!) I don't quite believe that it would necessarily become a war of extermination… Say whoever is in charge once had a pet cat, why would you shoot something that reminds you of your own Gato Morbido? Cute little (relatively speaking) Gato Morbido! (Yes, I know a cat with that honourable nickname). Unless we're talking about 40K humans, those guys are genocidal nutjobs.
If they are fascist than you are right about forcing their cultural beliefs on the Harkies… If the invaders are Canadian though… (just some light jabbing at my own multicultural society here)… well, they might try to teach them French.
As for duplication of tech… maybe, yes, but I would reserve judgment until we see the Lel in action (they did make a prosthetic arm better than our own currently… unless Shogun's hand is just a glove, but I doubt that).
Airships? Well, what is the difference between a flack gun and blowing other shit up with magical projectiles? But they probably don't have AA guns… or at least not the ones we know of.
The Speaker on live radio broadcast. Hmm. Scary… what about Facebook or Twitter? Would it work on those? Probably not, but the Speaker Man on Twitter would be funny. I'd follow him if I had Twitter.
Magic for the invaders would be interesting… and it raises another question, if the Harkies managed to get through the portal to attack the invader's home, would their magic still exist?
Megaphone Speaker would be interesting fan art, or The Speaker watching an old video of Hitler's speeches looking for tips. Actually, The Speaker is to the KITW what Goebbels was to Hitler (kinda, though Hitler also gave "good" speeches).
I seriously doubt that, with the exception of a VERY few beings on the level of the GotW would be a match for a chapter of space marines, or even a full mechanized squad. They CAN beat Chaos and Eldar, even when they bring out creatures of such power as bloodthirsters and avatars, Sorcerors and Farseers.
That's it is a fantasy, but since this is a fantasy world, why not? Hell, they could be communists! Maybe it would work on harkovast!
Sure, it looks like a cat, vaguely. But it looks more like a mutated human, and it's trying to kill you more often than not. Again, people hate things different from them, and the natives would look like abominations. Unless they encountered each other peacefully (how likely is that, considering they are there to invade?) there would be little opportunity for any connections to be made. Unless they connect these weird looking creatures to something that you don't want to kill on sight, peace cannot be made.
Or they might be like the English/Spanish and try to kill them/convert them to some religion/cultural belief. The french were all about converting people to their culture in their African colonies. I don't know how much the people who came to Canada cared about that, though.
With magic, anything is possible, I guess. It just seems unlikely they will just suddenly know how to make something so advanced without several years to study each piece of tech they acquire.
How many races have magical projectiles? I dunno, but something would be done about it. Some means of getting materials across the land to their main base would be found. Airships were just one idea. Also.. just because you have magic projectiles doesn't mean you can make them go 10000 feet in the air or higher. Arrows and catapults certainly can't. If it is a problem, they could fly at night when it would be difficult to see. Modern guidance systems would allow them to pilot back home without being able to see anything.
I would think radio and tv would work because you could hear a direct transmission of his voice, if that is what holds the magic. If it his presence, then it wouldn't. Perhaps Harkovast is willing to answer that question? How is the Speaker's power transmitted?
And another thing, is the magic of Harkovast tied to the land or the people? Are the races inherently magic, or is it to do with the world? You mentioned a race with no magic… are they native or invaders from elsewhere?
Well, with Goebels people had a choice about whether or not they would follow Nazism. With the Speaker, not so much.
But as to the art, get someone on it! I can't draw for shit, so someone else will have to bear the burden.
SMs can beat Chaos and Eldar… but Chaos and Eldar can beat SMs as well. Plus Farseers are technically (and in terms of fluff) far more powerful and dangerous than a Librarian. And Sorcerors are about on par.
The Golta sound kinda communistic…
Well, the mutated cat wouldn't necessarily be trying to kill you, after all the mutated cat has seen things that look radically different from it before (or at least know of those things). And of course there are almost always those humans who are like "well, we should study it" or "Lets be nice to them" (like Ripley's character in Avatar… oh fine, Weaver's character).
Point is that "Kill all the furry/scalely/etc bastards" isn't always gonna be the reaction. Well, maybe with the Onrapa (Squirrelies I mean, I think that's the Onrappa, it comes to mind anyway). "Squirrels! I hate them! With their cute noses and fluffy bushy tails! *pistol shot followed by squirrely "eep"*"
Anyone get that?
Yeah, at this point we just don't know the limits of the other magical people because we haven't really seen them yet. And remember Shogun's hand…
Okay, so the magical projectile thing is probably moot.
Oooh. Speaker Youtube video or Music video. Heh. "Join the West! Join the West!" or "The West is the best, the weeest is the beeest." (Explains Kanye's popularity huh?)
It's possible that someone with enough will power may be able to withstand The Speaker… Or someone who is just totally bonkers might be able to ignore him (ah, Sir Muir kills the Speaker? Maybe…). Goebbels just knew how to get into your head by placing ugly hypnotic flags everywhere… Okay, that doesn't give that rat bastard enough credit, but… yeah, your point stands.
I can't really draw for shit either. Might give it a try… on GIMP or Paint or something. Preferably something free.
Space marines? Lose? Nonsense! (You trying to get killed? The Inquisition/Ecclesiarchy will kill you if you keep saying stuff like that!)
Farseers may be more psychically potent, but that doesn't make them more powerful overall. Sorcerors are just corrupted Librarians.. usually. Some are survivors of the Horus heresy, so they are going to be MUCH more powerful if they aren't already demon princes.
Communal, not communist. There doesn't seem to be an all powerful government, and there is a strong religious aspect.
If you are trying to take their land, they will either be trying to kill you or running away. If they run away, it is a moot point unless you shoot them in the back. If they try to kill you, again a moot point. If there are any wise officers or a strong scientific core they would want to capture a few of each race they encounter to study their magic, culture, technology, society, ect. Same thing we would do to aliens. (I thought you hated Avatar down to the last character? I certainly did. "Righteousness is your shield, Faith your armour and Hatred your weapon!" Bomb the blue bastards from orbit! I mean, we don't know what unobtainium does. Maybe it's a cure for kitten cancer, huh?)
It probably would, especially as they are there to CONQUER THEIR HOME. Remember that they are invaders. No one wants to lose their home. If they are willing to conquer someone else's land, they better be willing to kill them to take it.
Everyone hates those damned tree rats.
Yeah, at this point we just don't know the limits of the other magical people because we haven't really seen them yet. And remember Shogun's hand…
Some races think they can outsmart humans (with magic). Maybe *sniff* maybe. I've yet to meet race that can outsmart bullet, artillery, cannon shell, or missile.
Yeah, pretty much.
Maybe the humans can persuade the SPEAKER that they are better! "Look at us, we have TVs, the internet, and instant coffee! What does your god give you except a loss of individuality?"
Or they could wear headphones, or just shoot him from 700 yards away.
Goebbels was alright, but Russia had the best propaganda. I mean, look at their old posters! They're awesomely hilarious.
I'm going to use all my (non existant) art talent by illustrating a really long Nuzlocke run.
Pfft. The Inquisition and and Ecclesiarchy don't particularly like the space marines… except maybe Grey Knights and Deathwatch. Besides what would they do? Chant at me?
Farseer kill stuff with their mind. Directly. And they can kill whole squads of infantry at once… and that's in the board game! Fluff wise they are even more crazy.
They are kinda communistic, or I believe it has been mentioned before. But it certainly isn't a perfect match.
There is always a chance that they will recognize you as the superior force and bow down to your greatness… Okay, maybe not, but some will probably side with you to save their hide.
Oh and I do hate Avatar, some of the acting wasn't bad but the characters were awful. I still say nuke em.
No one wants to lose their home, true, how many want to lose their lives? But the invaders would have to be willing to kill if necessary, of course.
As for outsmarting bullets etc… well, I've seen magic people creating magic shields of barriers that can stop pretty much anything… so… that might count as outsmarting a bullet.
Nah, couldn't persuade the Speaker… Hard to explain things logically to religious crazies like that.
Headphones would work if you knew what his power was, the invaders wouldn't know. If he uses that and gets close to someone important…
Have you seen some of the Chinese Communist propaganda? That's funny stuff too. If horrible as well.
Nuzlocke run? I dunno what you mean by that unless it's a bombing run on a bunch of Junlockes.
They may not like them (as they are outside of their control) but they will suppress any instance of people badmouthing them. They are the saviors of humanity, after all. You don't let a powerful symbol be tarnished EVER in the Imperium. Grey Knights and Deathwatch would kill you, and so would the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy. There is no such thing as a non-combat branch of the imperium… except for the Administratum.
Farseers are super psykers with all the training and knowledge of their craftworld… but even they fall before the might of the SM if they are stupid and arrogant enough to think they can really win. Fluff wise they are smart enough to not fight the Imperium directly if they can avoid it. All of their attacks are feints within feints, leading the Imperium to send troops to places the eldar want protected.
Communism was more organized and under the direct control of a central government… and it completely eschewed religion.
They might learn to recognize the power of future technology, and then surrender… Or they might decide to be foolish and fight to the last. I would imagine some would never give up and would have to go into hiding or be destroyed.
Fanatics would fight to the end, and some cultures would be filled with fanatics. I dunno which ones specifically (outside the Golta… which we are theoretically supposed to have been talking about the whole time.)
Sure you can create a magic shield, but can you maintain it forever? Can you put it up faster than the speed of sound? Can you have it up while sleeping? Some might be able to do all that, but for them you just bombard wherever they are until they are buried under mountains of rubble.
Sure you can! Just persuade them that his religion is, in fact, part of yours! Tell him he was right, but was missing a bit of information. It's how the Christians converted a lot of pagan tribes, convincing them that their religion was, in fact, christian and they didn't even know it.
Surely they would wear headphones to protect from shelling and the sheer amount of explosions and shots being fired around them. Maybe they listen to music while killing? I dunno. Unless he walked into a camp while they weren't fighting, I think he would just send minions after them instead of going for a direct confrontation. His powers wouldn't make him safe enough in the chaos of battle.
American propaganda is also funny. Propaganda tends to be hilarious, because it relies on you to think a certain way.
A nuzlocke run :http://www.nuzlocke.com/?p=4
That guy came up with the concept, and it really makes replaying the games a challenge… and then there is the added expectation that you will do a comic with what happened during the course of your game.
Well, the Necrons or Tyranids are probably going to kill everyone anyway. Damn those zombie terminator things and the bugs… though apparently tyranids are more reptilian than buggy.
I guess what the Eldar do to the Imperium just makes the humans all look like idiots.
Well, the KITW is essentially implementing a Stalinist system taken to even greater extremes than Stalin took it… Or, well, more accurately the KITW is an absolute monarch, and/or the leader (or object) of a Theocracy. I hate me some theocracies. Should I hide from the Inquisition now?
Nah, not everyone would give up, but some would. Some might actively aid the invaders (some aid the Nameless and the KITW for crying out loud).
True, but a magic shield would still have it's uses on a battlefield.
Nah, it might have worked on the Pagans, but it won't work here. Some Muslims tried that on some Christians way back when and it didn't work. Besides, that kind of talk will have the Speaker making you think that you had it right but were just missing a bit of information and that the answer is the KITW.
Do modern soldiers wear headphones? They need to hear orders, don't they? And we are talking WW2 or so tech here, they didn't wear headphones. Besides, the Speaker seems to be able to get around without getting killed quite well.
Oh, American propaganda is hilarious! The best part is how they try to say it isn't propaganda… okay, not the best part, but still… oh and how many people actually believe it isn't propaganda too! Wow. But the truth is that everyone has propaganda.
Ah, interesting Nuzlocke. Hmm.
I wont get into the specifics of The Speaker's powers and/or limitations, for obvious avoiding spoilers type reasons.
Get The Speaker to join another religion? As if1 he is The Speaker, not the listener!
What is all this kissing up to Space Marines?
Those guys aren't so tough!
"Give a me a hundred space marines, or failing that a thousands other troops!"
The idiot in 40k who said that had obviously never read the rule book properly!
If he had he would know that space marines aint that hot. +1 S and T? Hardly god like!
A thousand space marines vs 10,000 imperial guard would get slaughtered. (Try playing it in the game if you dont believe me!) so the idea that one chapter of space marines could conquer a city, much less a planet, is laughable.
Space marine librarians? What can they do that is so amazing? Fire energy bolts? Big whooo! Again, nothing very spectacular there.
I should also point out that Cthonic arguing that these guys take on demons and farseers, so the bad guys in Harkovast should be no problem seems to do the bad guys in Harkovast a diservice!
Actually the reason that bad guys are set up the way they are in Harkovast is in part a response to teh bad guys in 40K. I always hated the vague nature of hte forces of chaos. Fighting the force of change? Fighting against war? Thats such a philosophical mess that it got on my nerves. It's as dumb as the war on terror but on a cosmic scale.
GW does it that way becuase (likeeverything else) they got their ideas from Lord of the Rings, in which Sauron is a vague nad ill defined spirit for most of it.
I wanted to go more for the situation where evil is being run by a real and actual person (like Sauron at the start of the movie…or Cobra commander or Skeletor.)
The master of evil is alive, actually exists and you cna potentially meet the guy.
To me that just makes the whole conflict more meaningful and satisfactory, rather then fighting abstract concepts.
Now if you will excuse me, I have to go and beat up grumpiness and then steal trepidations lunch money.
Forgot to mention…
Something that might affect your thinking on this whole "invaders from ww2" idea.
Harkovast has a relatively primitive infrastructure so lacks the means to deploy and support the vast armies of the scale of ww1 or ww2.
The big battles in Harkovast are fought between a few thousand people.
To give an idea of scale-
The Ivos empire can deploy about 40,000 soldiers in total.
More primitive societies like the Ano-Chee could probably deploy more like about 8000.
Fluffwise the SM are the strongest force in the galaxy…. except for necrons. Of course, in game necrons are sadly quite awful nowm as they haven't had an update in something like 14 years..
The IG have really come a long way on the tabletop. All my arguments for the SM's power was fluff based.
Librarians supposedly have access to many hidden stores of knowledge, and even Chaos spellbooks if they are good enough little boys. They are supposedly the equal of a sorceror… But not usually.
Fluff-wise, 1 chapter could annihilate a planet under most circumstances.
SM have the advantage of EXTREMELY superior technology. Storm bolters, thunderhammers, and power swords can kill a demon.. sometimes. Chaptlains and commanders might have access to blessed weapons, which work a bit better. Anyways, let's not get into a discussion about who is strongest, tabletop and/or fluff. It will get silly very fast.
(Honestly, I love Chaos the most, Nurgle specifically. What a kindly old man, and generous with his gifts!) Chaos is evil and pure evil in WH40k. Sure, each one offers gifts to their followers, but each has disadvantages, and will eat your soul if you die. One of the reasons they Chaos gods are so hard to fight is BECAUSE they represent basic human emotions/desires. As long as humans feel these emotions, the chaos gods grow stronger. It's why the Eldar are so emotionless.. They don't want to feed Slaanesh, or even draw his attention. Of course, the other end of the spectrum from chaos is the necrons and not many people willingly follow their ideals.
For the most part, outside of the Dark Eldar, Chaos, and Necrons, there are no real "bad guys". The tyranids are just hungry, orks love fighting, Eldar are trying to protect themselves, Tau want to spread the mantra any way they can, and the Imperium wants to survive. All the groups do evil, even the Tau (which some people don't realize. They brainwash people and the Vespid didn't join all that willingly)
That makes it hard to tell a story there, as there are few true heroes. I do love Ciaphas Cain and Malus Darkblade, though. One is a hero, the other is DEFINATELY a villain, but both are entertaining.
The various forces of good and evil have been defined over the years in books and games. Chaos wants all the souls of humanity, as at heart they are hungering beasts. Necrons want to kill all life, as it is an anathema to them. Dark Eldar want to sacrifice souls to Slaanesh in the hopes that they will be spared his hunger. Orks love fighting, and are too stupid to ever go beyond that. Really, those are the only 'evils'. The Imperium is filled with less than pleasant groups (the Inquisition, Ultramarines, Sisters of Battle… fanatic killers, all) but the focus is generally on the less crazy people in the stories.
That's not fair comparing GW to Lotr. EVERYONE bases their fantasy on Lotr, it's what DEFINED the modern fantasy movement!
Sauron was a pushover anyways. Melchior is where it's at!
The Chaos gods are totally alive, and are often summoned in avatars and demon princes! The Necron deities often appear as well, as does Khaine of the Eldar. It would be hard to kill the actual gods, though. The Emperor could have done it when he was alive, and in fact that is part of why the Horus heresy happened. It was Chaos' last chance to obtain power. I suspect the GE could have beaten the remaining Necron deities as well, and, in fact, was probably suspicious of the cult of the Omnissiah. It is hinted that they worship the Void dragon at the center of Mars.
I didn't think they had highways, trains, landing strips, or modern ports. All of that would have to be built.
But since they locals wouldn't be used to fighting in trench warfare at it's peak, they would all be oblitorated by automatic fire and artillery… That would make for a short war. *Entire army of Harkovast natives line up* "Why are they all sitting in ditches?" "Who cares, that just means they will be easier to kill! They're just sitting there waiting for us to attack! Wait, what's that sound?" *BOOOM!* If they don't flee in the face of what seems to be powerful battle magic, they would be ripped to shreds anyways… And assuming the invaders set up some decent earthworks, the only ones that could get close would have to teleport/fly over the barbed wire, mines, and dodge anti air fire to do any damage at all. This would be fun to watch, I think. Middle-ages army charging trenches, unaware of all the traps and bullets about to make their day a little bit less pleasant. Could ANY race match 1 million soldiers from WW II all prepared and equipped for a fight?
I want to fight abstract concepts too! Can I fight modern music and pop culture?
Every 40K race has it's advantages.
Necrons are creepy. I hate em, hate em good.
And I like the Guard and both Eldar. Totally opposite styles of play.
But I have to disagree on thing. The Space Marines don't need a chapter to wipe out a planet… a company should do.
SM tech superior? Some of it. I wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of any of them, but particularly a wraithcannon. I am not interested in a trip to the warp, thanks.
Well, the chaos gods may be evil (though I see them more as natural), but their followers are not necessarily evil, in fact many of them see the Imperium as a tyranny that needs to be destroyed. Then again I think it's hard to defend their actions… But they may not be entirely evil.
Necrons are mindless servants… it's not really their fault, they just got jealous. Orks are crazy killing machines, but, eh, it's not their fault either really.
The Dark Eldar are depraved psychos. They are evil, almost completely, the soul eating bastards, but they do have a nearly mitigating factor… desperation.
And the Tau piss me off. I don't know why but they do. Maybe it's because they're all pansies.
Eh. Lotr is the default fantasy… and it ripped off so many myths I can't count.
Sauron? A pushover? Yeah. Pretty much. He has a tendency to get humiliated by people who are technically weaker than him, plus he's stupid. Morgoth or Gothmog are the way to go! Morgoth was a good overall evil overlord, just a bit of a coward. Gothmog could at least fight, and was a brilliant strategist, though he liked to fight elves himself too much.
I don't think the God Emperor could kill the Gods themselves. Chaos exists because of emotion, and the C'tan keep coming back unless you eat them, Khaine… well, he was awesome enough to actually take out the Nightbringer for a little while, and it took Slannesh using the full power of the rest of the Eldar gods to scatter Khaine, not even kill him. And the Harlequin jester is just too smart.
Problem is that everything wouldn't be decided by a single battle, and the Harkies would learn. Then we would see some fireworks. And I maintain that we just don't know what some of the Harkovasties could do. Even the speaker… maybe he can more than just talking, after all, he is the evil of Mind, and that could mean anything from psychic powers to illusions.
Hark, the SMs in the Board Game are dumbed down a significant amount from the fluff marines, or movie marines.
Also, chaos isn't necessarily evil… But Sauron is a character, not an abstract concept, just because he's a giant eyeball doesn't make him abstract, in fact Sauron actually fits your criteria. That would be like saying that Casper (the friendly ghost) is an abstract concept! But, otherwise I agree, it is kind of silly, but it happens! *Mutters something about Bush*
"Every 40K race has it's advantages."
Except Dark Eldar. They suck. Melee is their only good skill, and how often is THAT likely to happen?
"Necrons are creepy. I hate em, hate em good."
Awww, but they just want to help you! Leave this life, that is.
And I like the Guard and both Eldar. Totally opposite styles of play.
"But I have to disagree on thing. The Space Marines don't need a chapter to wipe out a planet… a company should do."
A single space marine could wipe some races out by himself, I would imagine. Just
"SM tech superior? Some of it. I wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of any of them, but particularly a wraithcannon. I am not interested in a trip to the warp, thanks."
Superior to the tech in Harkovast, sure. Superior to Eldar, Tau, or Necron tech? Hell no, and I doubt it will ever advance because they hate change anymore. Change led to the Horus Heresy, and so they don't want anymore of it.
"Well, the chaos gods may be evil (though I see them more as natural), but their followers are not necessarily evil, in fact many of them see the Imperium as a tyranny that needs to be destroyed. Then again I think it's hard to defend their actions… But they may not be entirely evil."
The Chaos gods aren't evil, per se, but they represent some of the worst emotions of humanity. Therefore their actions cause lots of death and destruction. All their followers are evil and or insane. Whether their intentions were good at first or not (how often is worshiping a dark deity a 'good intention'?) they are quickly corrupted by the power and the warp. That's just what the warp does. The 'Creator race' were what corrupted it in their war against the C'tan, because they are jerks.
"Necrons are mindless servants… it's not really their fault, they just got jealous. Orks are crazy killing machines, but, eh, it's not their fault either really."
The Necron Lords have a choice, as they retain full consciousness. They just believe that death throughout the universe is really the best thing to strive for.
"The Dark Eldar are depraved psychos. They are evil, almost completely, the soul eating bastards, but they do have a nearly mitigating factor… desperation. "
And rapists, sadists, and just generally unpleasant. Oh, come on, after more than 40000 years you would think they would see that their way of doing things doesn't work. Time to make a change!
"And the Tau piss me off. I don't know why but they do. Maybe it's because they're all pansies."
And they are brainwashing, imperial jerks. Plus, they seem tailor made for weeaboos. ADURP DURP, GUNDAMN SOOTZ THAT ARE ALSO INVISIBLE.
"Eh. Lotr is the default fantasy… and it ripped off so many myths I can't count."
At it's heart, everything was ripped off of everything, back to the first story told by cavemen, so that argument is invalid.
"Sauron? A pushover? Yeah. Pretty much. He has a tendency to get humiliated by people who are technically weaker than him, plus he's stupid. Morgoth or Gothmog are the way to go! Morgoth was a good overall evil overlord, just a bit of a coward. Gothmog could at least fight, and was a brilliant strategist, though he liked to fight elves himself too much."
Come on, man. You want evil? Think big! Melchior and Shielob! Melchior INVENTED EVIL in middle earth! He personally ended 2 ages, and led to the end of the 3rd age. He created dragons, balrogs, and corrupted elves to become orcs. What's not to like?
"I don't think the God Emperor could kill the Gods themselves. Chaos exists because of emotion, and the C'tan keep coming back unless you eat them, Khaine… well, he was awesome enough to actually take out the Nightbringer for a little while, and it took Slannesh using the full power of the rest of the Eldar gods to scatter Khaine, not even kill him. And the Harlequin jester is just too smart."
He was (and still is, apparently) able to hold off all 4 of the chaos gods from just coming to the real world and eating all the souls of humanity. I think, 1 on 1, he could have damaged them to the point where they would be replaced by another deity… which could then be smacked down. I think that if the original Golden throne had been completed, humanity would no longer need the warp. Without a constant use of the warp, perhaps the demons would die down.
"Problem is that everything wouldn't be decided by a single battle, and the Harkies would learn. Then we would see some fireworks. And I maintain that we just don't know what some of the Harkovasties could do. Even the speaker… maybe he can more than just talking, after all, he is the evil of Mind, and that could mean anything from psychic powers to illusions."
Unless they antagonize the whole world, I would think that they would fight only 1 nation. Of course, the Nameless and evils would enter eventually, but by then I would think the humans would have learned about magic and it's effects. Perhaps even a way to counter/cancel it, of only for a short period of time.. Like an EMP.
"Hark, the SMs in the Board Game are dumbed down a significant amount from the fluff marines, or movie marines."
They don't want SM to be utterly unbeatable. In fact, to make it harder, play as the Angry Marines chapter. Melee weapons only!
"Also, chaos isn't necessarily evil… But Sauron is a character, not an abstract concept, just because he's a giant eyeball doesn't make him abstract, in fact Sauron actually fits your criteria. That would be like saying that Casper (the friendly ghost) is an abstract concept! But, otherwise I agree, it is kind of silly, but it happens! *Mutters something about Bush*"
Chaos as a concept isn't evil, but the Chaos gods are. They live only to consume and destroy, a classic definition of evil. Sauron never (in the trilogy) did anything. It was all his minions, that's probably where he is getting that.
As an Eldar player I was always somewhat jealous of the longer range on the DE warrior's rifles… and I was under the impression that if used properly the DE were absolutely unstoppable. Just that doesn't happen. Almost ever. They really are a difficult race to use. But that Splinter Cannon! Dear goodness! four shots and it's an assault 24 inch range weapon! I've butchered Nids and Necrons with these guys (then again, it was a pretty small group), don't be dissing the Dark Eldar.
Point about the number of marines need for an extermination… one marine is good. Or one guy pushing a button on the battle barge works too.
Meh, not everyone's mind is completely twisted on the side of Chaos, they're just generally nuts. And calling them "Dark Deities" is viewing them through the Imperium's perspective lense. Okay, Khorne is nuts, but Nurgle ain't necessarily too bad. Tzeench, well, you can't trust him to remain constant, but he isn't necessarily evil. Slaneesh is… eeesh, a hedonistic creep.
Eh, I still think that the Creator Race made the Tyranids and sent them to make sure the Necrons never wake up.
Well, sometimes change depends on the death of a generation… and some of the DE who survived the fall are still alive. Vect for example.
Yeah, that might be it about the Tau.
True, I never really said it was valid, just pointing it out, not an effort to take away from LOTR.
Shelob was a wuss, talk to her mother Ungoliante. She attacked Morgoth and it took the Balrogs to save his ass. And, Morgoth is what Feanor called Melkor (as my version spells it), and so all the Noldor came to call him that. Morgoth means "Dark (Mor) Enemy (goth)" as a literal translation of the Quenya. Gothmog was Morgoth's captain and field commander, he killed Feanor, Fingon, and Ecthelion of the fountain (Though Echthelion killed him too, with some help). I'm kinda a Tolkien nerd. I've read the Silmarillion faaar too many times.
I was unaware that The Emperor was constantly struggling against the Gods of the Warp. I thought he just sat there. That's what the Eldar seem to think (or at least say) and they usually have it right.
Even if they did take on one nation at a time I'm pretty sure word would get around and something would be done. And we're talking WW1 tech here, I doubt that they would be able to create a kind of counter magic EMP before dealing with the more powerful people. Though they would probably have figured out about magic and thought real carefully about it too.
"Poke em inna eye!" Is from the Angry Marines I believe.
Okay, I'll admit that Sauron doesn't do much directly 'cept stare unnervingly at people. But the KITW hasn't done much yet himself… I'm waiting for that to change though. As I hope it will…
Sorry, I just never thought Space Marines were that impressive.
If you have a power weapon, they are over priced losers as their fancy armour makes up a large part of their points value.
(Sir Muir has a power weapon…and the hidden fang would deffinitely get some knd of eqiuvilant effect I think, so those two would have a field day chopping up marines.))
Space Marines are pretty rubbish at war, just like everyone in 40K.
They all stand in a field, dressed in bright coloured uniforms, waving flags and marching at each other and then using their guns as clubs when they get too close.
Is this the future or the 18th century?
These are tactics to use with your musket, not your rocket launcher!
These guys show up to intergalactic war with freaking swords!
Also, I dont buy all this "marines are tougher in the background" crap. I played the game, they were not all that tough. If they are supposed to be tougher, they should rewrite the rules to make em tougher. The company is called GAMES Workshop, not "Oh but actually they are a lot tougher if you read the books" workshop!
But The fact remains- Chapter of space marines vs Harkovast= Harkovast wins.
There would be only a thousand of those power armoured dorks! Lets say it takes 20 Darsai to bring one down (A high estimate, considering their performance on the table top and the short range on their guns.)
That means it would only take 20,000 Darsai to defeat them, less than the Darsai Kingdom can deploy. So not only does a chapter of the "finest warriors in the galaxy" fail to take over Harkovast…they cant even over whelm just the Darsai!
I suppose they could hide in their space ships and bombard from orbit…but frankly any character from any sci fi with a space ship could do that. Hardly proves them to be the big bad ass dudes they claim to be.
Space Marines= Over rated but with fantastic PR.
I am pretty sure the Emperor jsut sits in his Golden Throne not communicating or really doing anything other than creating a psychic impression in the warp.
I've also read some material that implied it is possible the Emperor is dead.
After all, if he was but the machiens around him kept the psychic beacon going…how would you tell the difference?
Anyway, back to something even vaguely related to this topic-
An anti magic EMP? You seem to be talking about this like it is an inevitability. By that logic, couldn't the harkovast people invent an "anti-science" spell that makes all the other sides guns stop working?
I think you need to steer the discussion away from theoretical things that each side might invent and focus on what they actually show up with.
Canuovea- The KITW keeps himself pretty busy. He already destroyed the natiosn of the West and is now moving on to destroying everything else.
His rise to power has been going on for about 100 years (I always prefer a comparatively tight time frame on these things, so the bad guy is not sat on his arse for 2000 years between events!)
Err, unless the Hidden fang and the Darsai weapons (which you said are just better than regular weapons, sharper etc, not like power weapons at all) are better than a lightsaber from Starwars then they got nothing on power weapons. If they are, how the hell did the Darsai lose against the nameless at the beginning of the nameless war?
Rubbish at war, well, I have found it kind of odd, but sometimes armour gets better right along with the weapons so CC isn't, necessarily, so unlikely. And I disagree. Some of them use outdated tactics, like most Imperial Guard commanders (trench warfare, WW1 style, but with more tanks).
As for marine toughness… there is a rule in the Codex entitled "Movie Marines" which simply makes the Space Marines better (and more pricey), it gives a completely different profile for the SMs that makes them like having some of the game's toughest heroes as regular units. Why aren't they that tough in the game normally? Simple, there would be less of them, which means the army looks less impressive and Games Workshop makes a lot less money. And they do like making money for overpriced plastic.
And there is that one story where ten marines almost destroyed an army of Renaissance era style troops. The almost is because a bunch of daemons showed up. It was in the Chaos Codex of course. It was a story though but it makes a point.
The Eldar say that the Emperor is dead. Generally that's good enough for me.
I don't see an anti-magic EMP device working with WW2 tech myself. And this was on topic… we are arguing about futuristic people fighting Harkovastites.
Was the KITW conquering those places in person or just letting his deputies do it? Sauron destroyed Numenor in person, but that happened before the LOTRs begins, just like the KITW took over the west before Harkovast officially begins. So they seem pretty similar to me. Sauron is a character, not a concept, he may represent a concept metaphorically but the KITW may too. Unless being around for a longer time and working at his goal for a longer time makes Sauron a concept. Does that make my Great Grandfather a concept, not a person or character, too? So far there isn't much difference between Sauron and the KITW (I say so far!), both are malevolent beings in the background of the story at the moment. And both are sending fallen kings/heroes/etc against the good guys along with a bunch of evil critters. Oh, and they are both supposedly powerful. The main difference is that the KITW actually (probably) has physical form aside from a giant eyeball and has taken less time in getting to work. Oh, and from the sound of it so far the KITW could squish Sauron like a little grape. But pretty similar besides that. This is, of course, if Cthonic is right about your point. But comparing Sauron to the Chaos Gods is a bit much, they do represent concepts in a literal sense. Sauron is a character (even if he is a spirit) that can simply be defined as "malevolent and evil with a goal to dominate all life" The KITW can so far only be described that way as well except he works faster.
Enough of me ranting about Sauron though (who I still think is kind of a wuss). Morgoth is the way to go, and he makes plenty of appearances in the Silmarillion, so does Sauron too for that matter (usually getting his rear end kicked though).
My point with Suaron is tha twhile in the background he was a guy once, he isn't one at the momment.
He is an ethemeral spirit that never really does anything but everyone talks about a lot.
If he had actualy been dead in Lord of the Rings nad the Orcs nad Ringwraiths just had a religion that said he was still alive and became horribly demoralised when the ring (the symbol of their religion) was destroyed, the story of LOTR would have played out pretty much the same.
That is really the key difference that i watn to stress. The KITW is very much an actual person who physically is somewhere, has a personality, motivations, back story etc.
Obviously I cant say anything about what those traits are, but the key point is that he really is an actual person, not a spirit/abstract concept.
A well made chainsword (frost sowrds that space wolves get) count as power weapons, an orc with a big axe used to reduce marine armour AND big claw on an orc does the same thing.
Despite their claims when they made 3rd edition, everyone and their uncle bob counts as a powerweapon these days! In fact, if you are any good you get a power weapons that also gives another bonus (god bless the power creep in war games!)
So marines cant do what the background says they should? that implies either a poorly written game, a poorly written background or a little of both.
Gimme orks any day.
They used to be a abig unfunny joke but these days they are bad ass!
WAAAAAARRRGGGHHH!
Ah, yes, I see your point about Sauron. I still disagree though. The organizing voice and mind behind the evil events in LOTR was Sauron. He was doing something and in some cases that was more than simply siccing his henchmen against the good guys.
Before LOTR the book started Sauron had grown powerful in Dul Guldar (or somesuch name) in Mirkwood, appropriating the title "The Necromancer" and around the time The Hobbit takes place he gets driven out from there and slowly resettles in Mordor. From there he has his people get going properly.
Now, before all this, the Witchking (Nazgul boss man living in Minas Morgul) had been enough of a problem by himself (destroying Arnor, Gondor's sister kingdom, and screwing Aragorn's lineage over badly, forcing them to become Rangers, he then spent his time harassing Gondor). However it is not until Sauron returns that things really pick up. Again, Sauron is the directing intelligence behind the whole thing, none of the other baddies are quite smart enough. He doesn't need a completely physical form to do this.
And, Sauron does act directly. He corrupts Saruman the White, via the palantir (though Saruman was already ambitious), and strikes a bargain. Saruman wasn't chatting to the Lord of the Nazgul there. Second, Sauron, also by means of the palantir, screws with Denethor's head (you know, they guy who gets set on fire) and in so doing directly weakens Gondor's defenses. He makes the leader of the good guys a insane depressed maniac. And that's what happens when you put your will directly against that of Sauron. Sauron was actively involved here. There is also a section in the book where Gandalf and Sauron duke it out inside Frodo's head, Sauron tries to get him to keep the ring on and Gandalf tries to get him to take it off (though it should be noted that Gandalf is supposedly dead at this point). Oh, and Aragorn shows Sauron the reforged sword through the Palantir, this causes Sauron to freak out and start his attack against Gondor prematurely. This is a key plot point that would not have happened had Sauron been dead and part of some obscure Nazgul religion.
So no, if Sauron was destroyed, and it was just the Nazgul, then things would not have gone the way they did. I say this, but since Tolkien is dead I doubt we could get a proper response on the matter so we may never know for certain.
Sauron may have a stock personality but he still has one. Same for his motives. And he definitely has a back story. As for being physically somewhere, well, Sauron is more of less in Barad-dur. At the point of the LOTR Morgoth is more of a Spirit/abstract concept, but Sauron is still a player in the story. You just don't see him directly all that often.
Technically the marines would be able to do that, but the game mechanics would require a little bit of tweaking in order to balance out the shoddy tech with the ceramite armour and overall awesomeness of the Marines.
And the chainswords I've seen don't ignore armour, some will reduce it, and some give a strength bonus, but they don't ignore the armour. Khornite Chain Axes, for example makes all saves better than 4+ to be 4+ and the Striking Scorpian Chainswords just give them 4 strength rather than 3.
I like the Orks too, can't play as them, but they're neat. The DOW 2 videogame has a new expansion coming out where you get to play as pirate orks, Freebooterz I think, and the captain has a big funny pirate Hat. Oh and in that Game the SMs are incredibly powerful, particularly in single player campaign.
In at least one eddition, space wolves had special chain swords that were better than power weapons!
The thing with all the stuff Sauron does its all very vague and ill defined since we never actually see him do anythign (cause he cant really be seen).
You can still make the story flow basically the same with him being dead.
Saruman is corrupted and joins the scary worshippping Sauron religion, denethor goes mad because he uses the plantir and sees all the evil forces that are coming to destroy his kingdom etc
It still works, because everything Sauron does is implied. It feels a bit like when Religious folk refer to things as acts of god or god working in a mysterious way. But since we cant see or detect god, how do we know it was his will and not just random shit that happened?
Now obvious in LOTR Sauron's evil spirit is real etc, but my point is that the story would work if he wasn't.
The KITW, while mysterious is more like an actual character. There is a guy, in the world, who is the supreme lord of evil. Fighting abstract concepts sucks!
I have a guilty confession though….but I have to come clean….
I own a huge army of Space Marines.
I'm not proud, but there it is.
Can I help it is the models are the easiest and cheapest ot get hold of?
I didn't want to be like everyone else going for the most boring obvious side….but I was a poor student! I was young, I didn't know any better!
I will have to post some pictures sometime of my chapter, The Panther Claws (who where purple and are bad ass inspite of their handicap of being marines and thus crap.)
I wouldn't be surprised. In some cases the +1 strength of the Scorpion chainswords is better than a power weapon. Scorpions butcher guardsmen like cattle, Banshees take their time at it.
Uh, hmm. No, not really. He is a giant eyeball after all… sorta. The movie didn't make that part up. Entirely anyway.
And I don't really think it can flow with Sauron being dead. Who was the Necromancer then? Who did Aragon freak out by showing the reforged shards of Narsil to? That was the sword that chopped Sauron's ring finger off after all and he didn't like seeing it back and being used. You can't really make an excuse with Sauron being dead. Someone had to have seen it, and been afraid of it. That someone is clearly stated in the book as being Sauron. Not Mr. Nazgul, Sauron. The character Sauron. Who then made a horrendous strategic miscalculation out of panic. That is not implied, it is stated.
So I once again state that it makes more sense to have Sauron as an actual character doing things. So they aren't fighting abstract concepts.
Don't feel too down Hark, the new SM codex makes them pretty good…
…
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHheheehhHAhehhe… ahem. Space Marines… I'll take the poor bastards with flak armour and the equivalent of flashlights any day! Actually, I have a large Eldar army that is collecting a good amount of dust. Haven't used it in ages. And at this point I prefer Dark Eldar or Imperial guard anyway, so I stick with the video game. But please do post pictures! I've got an idea…
I don't care what anyone says…Sauron is badass and his opening in Peter Jackson's Fellowship of the Ring amazed me.
I love the design of his humanoid form, it's definitely my favourite character design in all the movies and the fact that he knocks entire armies away with his mace…wow, just wow.
My only complaint was that he was so underused, they seemed to save the best design for a character they'd use the least. For the entire duration of the movie series I had hoped that Sauron would be resurrected in his knight-like form so that he could once again knock entire armies away, I mean don't get me wrong the eye was cool and all…but he relied more so on his minions to do the dirty work, while in his physical form he would show up on the battlefield himself in order to show just how powerful he was and prove his power he did, that to me is better than just some floating eye who looks at you menacingly. (although to be fair, his voice did sound great and the fact that he showed up on screen so many times just to roar at the audience was fairly scary, that and they are pretty much the same character.)
Needless to say, I was really disappointed when Sauron died at the end of the third movie, while everyone else was cheering, I was booing. True story, the fact that his physical form didn't show up anymore (except for a breif cameo appearance in the extended edition) really let me down, I blame the internet for that one since I read a plot synopsis on Aragorn fighting Sauron's physical form and although it would not have been accurate to the books at all…I think it would have been spectacular to see.
I've never read The Silmarillion so I cannot say anything about Morgoth, though I did see his appearance on Wikipedia and he does look pretty cool.
To me, the new Sauron design was leaps and bounds better than that viking-cosplaying-silhouette in the animated Lord of the Rings.
But that's just my two cents.
Eh, Sauron… I still think he's a loser. He is constantly getting beaten by the most unexpected or least powerful beings there are. I mean, a wolfhound beats him up. That's right, a doggie. Sauron gets beaten up by a doggie. And the whole hobbit thing is just embarrassing, really.
I'm pretty sure that Sauron in the Movie was not actually how he was specified in the book, I could be wrong, but it looked like a rip off of Morgoth. Big mace, really tall, yeah… Then again, Sauron would be the type to rip off his old boss, eh?
It was awesome though, maybe not quite as awesome as the Balrog (well, my first impression anyway, then I realized that there is no way that Balrogs from the books were so freaken huge. Aw well, still looked awesome.
Heh, I remember that silhouette. Yeah, the balrog in that movie was pretty bad.
Eh, Sauron… I still think he's a loser. He is constantly getting beaten by the most unexpected or least powerful beings there are. I mean, a wolfhound beats him up. That's right, a doggie. Sauron gets beaten up by a doggie. And the whole hobbit thing is just embarrassing, really.Wizards are not known for great hand to hand combat skills. He could have crushed the hobbits if he had fought them, though… But, with no body, that's hard to do.
I'm pretty sure that Sauron in the Movie was not actually how he was specified in the book, I could be wrong, but it looked like a rip off of Morgoth. Big mace, really tall, yeah… Then again, Sauron would be the type to rip off his old boss, eh?
It was awesome though, maybe not quite as awesome as the Balrog (well, my first impression anyway, then I realized that there is no way that Balrogs from the books were so freaken huge. Aw well, still looked awesome.
Heh, I remember that silhouette. Yeah, the balrog in that movie was pretty bad.
Sauron was a sorceror, so says the Silmarillian. Wouldn't he dress up similarly to Gandalf? Just saying…
I have an IG army (MAN do you need a lot of those things… I must have put 400 dollars into those buggers and their tanks.) and am working on a necron army. Yeah, I know, Necrons suck now… but I still love them. I will paint them bright pink. They will shoot their rays of love across the galaxy!
And, since I've been away all day, back a couple posts… I thought EMPs were around in WW II? I don't remember.
Anti technology EMP would be a regular one, no? Tech or electrical magic could duplicate it if they saw how one worked, I would guess. Building some sort of anti-magic distuptor or shield would essentially win the whole war, unless something catastrophic happened… and then the Nameless would get it. Nameless with anti-magic weapons. Sounds like fun, no?
Also, how is the emperor dead? Because the Eldar said so? When did humans decide to trust Eldar about ANYTHING? I mean, the Astronomician is the Emperor's consciousness, so it seems unlikely. The fluff also describes him as alive, but not really the same Emperor who sat down on the throne at the beginning. His mind is fractured, taking care of the entire Imperium at once, something he could never do while he was contained in his body. And if the Emperor were dead, who would keep the Chaos gods from just taking all human souls when they die?
Why do you seem to dislike SM so much, Harkovast? Because they are the most overplayed, annoying race in the game, or is it something deeper? Did.. did an SM kill your family? *gasp!* Are you a heretic?!
Cthonic no time for a long reply but I would jsut like to say-
Inf the emperor was dead and thus chaos gods ate everyones souls when they died…how would anyone knwo the difference?
By definition of being dead you cnat ask a soul where it ended up.
Besides…I always got the impression that is what ahppened anyway?
I never heard of any heaven in the warp for good souls to go to!
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