Cthonic no time for a long reply but I would jsut like to say- Inf the emperor was dead and thus chaos gods ate everyones souls when they died…how would anyone knwo the difference? By definition of being dead you cnat ask a soul where it ended up. Besides…I always got the impression that is what ahppened anyway? I never heard of any heaven in the warp for good souls to go to!
They go to the Emperor. Psykers would know where the souls go, because in this universe they actually can detect souls.
The Chaos gods would be gaining power even faster than they are if it was a soul buffet
Go to the Emperor? What does that mean? Where is that?
Cthonic I think you are taking the Imperial cult a bit at face value!
Also, your arguement that the chaos gods would be gaining power "even faster" seems a bit odd. How do you measure how quickly they are gaining power? The books dont seem to give a measure. Certianly there is no chart to confirm the power to souls ratio.
40K is supposed to be entirely bleak and hopeless. The idea of a shining light that promises salvation would seem wierdly out of place. When you die, chaos gods eat your soul. Yum yum yum.
Go to the Emperor? What does that mean? Where is that?
Cthonic I think you are taking the Imperial cult a bit at face value!
Also, your arguement that the chaos gods would be gaining power "even faster" seems a bit odd. How do you measure how quickly they are gaining power? The books dont seem to give a measure. Certianly there is no chart to confirm the power to souls ratio.
40K is supposed to be entirely bleak and hopeless. The idea of a shining light that promises salvation would seem wierdly out of place. When you die, chaos gods eat your soul. Yum yum yum.
I dunno, I've never died. How do you know that the Imperial cult isn't right? I mean, the Emperor himself didn't like them when he was able to tell them to stop personally, because he didn't like being deified.. But, as the strongest warp presence known to mankind, he might as well be a god. Those souls have to go somewhere, why not to the Emperor? As fuel, or in some sort of heavenly realm, it's not really clear.
They have been gaining in power steadily over the last 20,000 years, and the Imperium has been getting weaker. That has been stated many times, it's why the Black crusades keep getting bigger and more powerful. I wish there was an easy to use chart for things like that. It would make being a chaos sorcerer so much easier.
It is bleak and hopeless… for heretics and xenos! The Emperor is the only one out there who can protect souls, and he only protects loyal humans. The Eldar have another way to protect their people's souls, and I don't know what happens with the Tau. I also don't know if orks or tyranids have souls, I would think they don't. Necrons are tied to their necrodermis, and Chaos worshippers are already lost.
Sauron wouldn't have necessarily dress like Gandalf, technically he lost the ability to assume a eye pleasing form when he got owned by Numenor sinking like a rock. Also, Sauron was a Maiar, yes, but not one of the Istari, who came over the sea dressed like old men, so he probably dressed different from Gandalf.
Technically if you are alive your soul is more or less bound to your body in 40k, but it is reflected as a presence in the warp. Psychers have a particularly, uh, "luminous" spirit, which attracts warp creatures like moths to a flame.
Necrons technically have souls, but weak ones, and the Dark Eldar don't like the taste much. Tau also have souls, but they don't really appear strongly in the warp; which is why they don't get psychers. Tyranids actually blanket the warp, the Hive Mind is like a huge soul/consciousness that falls like "a shadow across the warp."
Orks do have souls. And they are about as tasty as anyone else's.
The Imperial Cult is bullshit. Thing is that the Space Marines themselves believe that their souls go to the Emperor, and they generally disagree with the Imperial Cult in terms of theology (SM don't see it as theology).
The Imperium has been getting weaker, that does not mean that the Chaos Gods have been necessarily getting stronger. Besides there are more players here than meets the eye. It is true that the Astronomican is beginning to flicker intermittently, and that perhaps the Golden Throne is failing…
But it is possible that the Astronomican is not the Emperor's will, consciousness, or whatever. In fact I remember it being a psychic chorus played by millions of psychers, whose souls are slowly depleted and fed to the Emperor when the psychers finally die. It may be directed by the Emperor's will, or simply by the Golden Throne itself. It is entirely possible that the Emperor is essentially dead and that it is the Golden Throne itself that is operating everything.
And 40K isn't necessarily hopeless. Well, that is what the Ecclesiarchy wants you to think anyway. Perfect motivator for those poor footsloggers, eh?
40K is hopeless if you are an Eldar! You have to get your magic stone taken back to thecraft world to AVOID getting eaten by the forces of evil. Thats right, being a good little eldar etc has no effect on your after life. And if your soul is collected, do you go to heaven? Nope, just get plugged into a giant psychic waiting room in the circuitry of thecraft world. The best you can hope for is to get to drive a dreadnaught around!
And this is not just a very depressing religion, it is presented in 40K as indisputable fact!
A situation so depressing that even killing yourself will only make things worse!
Personally I would have written it so the eldar hold onto the souls of their dead because they need to make up the numbers because the living population is always dwindling. All that "Slanesh is standing outside eldar heaven with a saucepan rubbing his/her tummy" crap just strikes me as kinda funny and hard to take seriously.
Yeah, not great being an Eldar… until they bring back their God of the Dead… that might make things interesting… Then again, you do live a long time… but that makes it just more likely that you're gonna die violently.
Then again, driving a dreadnaught around ain't too bad…
And all that damn control… blah, the Craftworld Eldar just wouldn't be the type to jump up on stage and do the Time Warp while watching the Rocky Horror Picture Show. The Dark Eldar would go all out… and then probably kill everybody during or after… See, at least the Dark Eldar got a sense of party! "Let's do the time warp again!" Heheheh.
It is kinda funny if you have no sympathy for those poor bastards. Which, you know, most people don't. Why? Well I heard this about the Eldar…
Imagine you see that your neighbour has some termites. Instead of telling him about the termites and helping him get rid of them; you burn down his house because there is the slight chance that the termites might infest your house. That's the Eldar for you.
Not entirely sympathetic, is it?
Oh and the Dark Eldar will kill or Rape or Torture or Eat souls just for fun. Not sympathetic. Nope. By the way, in Logic, "or" isn't exclusive, in fact it means that the statement is true if one of those things happen… or all of them. And not necessarily in that order either…
40K is hopeless if you are an Eldar! You have to get your magic stone taken back to thecraft world to AVOID getting eaten by the forces of evil. Thats right, being a good little eldar etc has no effect on your after life. And if your soul is collected, do you go to heaven? Nope, just get plugged into a giant psychic waiting room in the circuitry of thecraft world. The best you can hope for is to get to drive a dreadnaught around!
And this is not just a very depressing religion, it is presented in 40K as indisputable fact!
A situation so depressing that even killing yourself will only make things worse!
Personally I would have written it so the eldar hold onto the souls of their dead because they need to make up the numbers because the living population is always dwindling. All that "Slanesh is standing outside eldar heaven with a saucepan rubbing his/her tummy" crap just strikes me as kinda funny and hard to take seriously.
I think that putting the soulstone back in the pool allows for reincarnation… Or you can end up in a wraithguard suit. Depends on what you want, I suppose. They DO need to keep up the population, because their numbers ARE dwindling. Same with the SM, they save geneseed and bodies for reuse because their numbers are nothing like they were pre-heresy, so they need to recycle what they have over and over again.
Cthonic- Nope, no reincarnation in the Eldar religion. You just sit in the soul matrix thing until you get put in a dreadnaught or the craft world gets destroyed or damaged (as eventually they all will, as the eldar are dieing off). After that its straight off to slanesh' all you cna eat soul bouffett.
Canouvea the eldar believe that all of the eldar will need to be dead in order to get enough souls to merge together and make the god of the dead. So even their supposed salvation involves their extinction.
Eldar- You cant win, you cant break even and you cant get out of the game.
I was actually under the impression that it was when enough Eldar die, and their souls aren't consumed by Slaanesh… That means the Infinity Circuit in the Craftworld… which means… not all Eldar have to be dead. There just have to be enough Eldar souls accumulated… Then bammo, you got yourselves the Eldar equivalent of the second coming.
And there's also that Eldar Jester God to be worrying about too… the one who seems to give Slaanesh and the Deceiver a run for their money… Unless, of course, he is the Deceiver, in which case you gotta worry about who the Harlequins are worshiping, but I doubt it.
Don't count the Eldar completely down and out yet. Though their approach to existence is itself very fatalistic (Rhana Dandra, or whatever, the final battle with Chaos), what happens remains to be seen. So the Eldar themselves technically have hope, after a fashion, which may be enough for their strange race.
Canuovea the god of the dead requires more nad more souls to be in the soul matrix thingies. Though the exact amount required is not known, it is speculated that it will take the souls of the entire race in order to morph into the death god. I guess it is an odd kind of hope. "We will all be dead…but at least we will get to have a nice afterlife…or at least one that isn't quite so terrible."
What a depressing bunch those Eldar are!
Anyway…….GOLTA! Any thoughts, questions? What ya got?
Canuovea the god of the dead requires more nad more souls to be in the soul matrix thingies. Though the exact amount required is not known, it is speculated that it will take the souls of the entire race in order to morph into the death god. I guess it is an odd kind of hope. "We will all be dead…but at least we will get to have a nice afterlife…or at least one that isn't quite so terrible."
What a depressing bunch those Eldar are!
Anyway…….GOLTA! Any thoughts, questions? What ya got?
If they were to fall to chaos, which god do you think they would worship? Not Tzeench, surely, as they seem to be pretty conservative. Probably not Slaanesh, what with their sensibilities and all.. Khorne, maybe? They seem to be a society based on preparation for battle. Wouldn't take much to push them into expanding 'for their protection', I would think. Nurgle, tho.. I can't see much connection there. Or the forgotten 5th Chaos god.. Hmm. I can see them worshiping Malal, fighting against other races that fell to Chaos. Or would they worship other gods? The Deciever perhaps?
Ummm well lets see. Tzeetch is too weird adn abstract for a direct people like the golta. Slanesh….these are the most miserable, surly, grumpy people in harkovast! No way! Nurgle- The are not suffering any big plagues or anything and are a genrally pretty healthy bunch. Khorne- Golta are not into conquest, they see war as a means to an end (making money, defending their territory) Malal- any self respecting cultist of any race would refuse to worship such a loser on principle.
So not really any there. THe Golta's main bad traits are xenophobia, racism and isolationism. Not really a chaos god for those problems.
I just added new fan art to the fan art gallery if anyone is interested in seeing that.
Ummm well lets see. Tzeetch is too weird adn abstract for a direct people like the golta. Slanesh….these are the most miserable, surly, grumpy people in harkovast! No way! Nurgle- The are not suffering any big plagues or anything and are a genrally pretty healthy bunch. Khorne- Golta are not into conquest, they see war as a means to an end (making money, defending their territory) Malal- any self respecting cultist of any race would refuse to worship such a loser on principle.
So not really any there. THe Golta's main bad traits are xenophobia, racism and isolationism. Not really a chaos god for those problems.
I just added new fan art to the fan art gallery if anyone is interested in seeing that.
Wait a minute… Xenophobia, racism, and isolationism? If they were humans they would be prime candidates for the Imperial cult!
And war as a means to an end? Well, if you were corrupted by Khorne, war would become it's own end. I think that would be needed to turn the Golta to Khorne is a bit of corruption in the leaders and clergy, slowly changing how they look at war. It might take a generation or two, but it could happen fairly fast as corruption goes.
Then again I think that the Golta also sound a bit like the Eldar. Relatively advanced weaponry, small country and population, citizen soldiers, see themselves as constantly under threat, incredibly conservative, dislike for the other races on principle, and, yeah, that seems it.
They don't really seem to be the Chaosy type. In fact I at first thought you guys were talking about the Eldar, not the Golta! Pretty close to me.
Other question, has anyone other than the Tolpish, actually attacked the land of the Golta?
I have no idea who malal is, that's why I assumed he/she is a loser.
The Golta have fought a few small wars with other races, but nothing on a very large scale.
The Golta penisular is very well defended with forts and garrisons and patrolling rangers and since the Golta are so insular, they don't really provoke invasion from others very much.
The Golta generally see themselves as under a lot more threat they actually are, especially since they tend to think of all other races as one big group that plots against them (using tolpish as a collective term adds to this sense of everyone else against us.)
I have no idea who malal is, that's why I assumed he/she is a loser.
The Golta have fought a few small wars with other races, but nothing on a very large scale.
The Golta penisular is very well defended with forts and garrisons and patrolling rangers and since the Golta are so insular, they don't really provoke invasion from others very much.
The Golta generally see themselves as under a lot more threat they actually are, especially since they tend to think of all other races as one big group that plots against them (using tolpish as a collective term adds to this sense of everyone else against us.)
Malal is the forgotten (by players) god that represent's chaos' tendency to destroy itself. He fights Chaos because it is his nature to want to destroy them all, and the other Chaos gods really hate him… but so does everyone else, because he is still a chaos deity.
But were those 'small wars' acts of aggression on the Golta's part or the other party?
You would think that their technology would be reason enough to invade.
So they are like eldar to an extent, but think the plotting is against them instead of being the plotters. Interesting.
Malal is lame and thats why they dont mention him anymore.
This whole Golta are like Eldar thing I dont really get. Stylistically they are nothign alike, they have no secret big plans and designs and they are not a dieing race. They have a Spartan life style so Eldar love of art and aesthetics would be seen as decadent by them.
A few people have invade the golta to try and get their weapons, but more in a raid way (that was a lot of trouble and the weapons don't work without golta to maintain them). There has not really been a large scale serious attempt to take them over.
Malal is lame and thats why they dont mention him anymore.
This whole Golta are like Eldar thing I dont really get. Stylistically they are nothign alike, they have no secret big plans and designs and they are not a dieing race. They have a Spartan life style so Eldar love of art and aesthetics would be seen as decadent by them.
A few people have invade the golta to try and get their weapons, but more in a raid way (that was a lot of trouble and the weapons don't work without golta to maintain them). There has not really been a large scale serious attempt to take them over.
I would think that if another tech magic race got ahold of one they could reverse engineer one, or perhaps make an improvement. I can see them being unable to duplicate the gunpowder exactly, and to compensate for inferior propellant they invent rifling or cartridges or something.
Golta magic, like all magic, is tied closely to being a Golta. To learn their magic you have to learn to be like one of them. It isn't really something you could "reverse engineer", instead you would have adopt an entirely Golta philosophy and forsake the magic and beliefs you had been engaging in.
Golta magic, like all magic, is tied closely to being a Golta. To learn their magic you have to learn to be like one of them. It isn't really something you could "reverse engineer", instead you would have adopt an entirely Golta philosophy and forsake the magic and beliefs you had been engaging in.
No no no no, not at all. You would have to study it like a scientist, using your own tech magic to try to see how they did it. If you don't get it perfect, but figure out something similar with at least 60 % efficiency, you would have to invent something to compensate, no?
Why would tech magic not be able to duplicate, at least in part, the result of other tech magic? Sure, the magic is a result of a culture, but if it the same general type it should be able to be copied to an extent.
No? Did you just tell me "no" about how I say magic in Harkovast works?
Thats certainly a unique stratedgy!
I think you are confusing technology magic and science and assuming the two things are the same and interchangeable.
In he same way that races with fire magic cannot reproduce Darsai energy weapons or Ano-Chee (who have life magic in common with Tsung-Dao) can't replicate Tsung-Dao kung fu, knowing technology magic does not let you replicate what Golta do. Golta magic is based on their unique combination of technology and fire magic. Without becoming like a Golta in the way you think and live, learning to replicate it is impossible.
Using science to study magic? Do I even need to point out what is wrong with this theory? And 60% efficiency? Where are you getting these numbers from?
No? Did you just tell me "no" about how I say magic in Harkovast works?
Thats certainly a unique stratedgy!
I think you are confusing technology magic and science and assuming the two things are the same and interchangeable.
In he same way that races with fire magic cannot reproduce Darsai energy weapons or Ano-Chee (who have life magic in common with Tsung-Dao) can't replicate Tsung-Dao kung fu, knowing technology magic does not let you replicate what Golta do. Golta magic is based on their unique combination of technology and fire magic. Without becoming like a Golta in the way you think and live, learning to replicate it is impossible.
Using science to study magic? Do I even need to point out what is wrong with this theory? And 60% efficiency? Where are you getting these numbers from?
It would seem you misunderstood me. I said 'no' because that's not what I meant with my question, not to say you were wrong. You didn't seem to see what I was getting at, and sadly misunderstood me again. D':
I was assuming technology magic and science are related, and knowledge of one would provide synergy to the other. For example, if you understand how an explosive propellant works, you might be able to glean knowledge of how something was done to improve it other than 'it was their magic'. What did their magic DO exactly? If you know exactly what it did, then something can perhaps be done to copy it, if in an inferior way. That is what I was getting at this whole time. Scientific study doesn't mean science, just a way of looking at a problem. I pulled 60 % out of the air, it was just an example of how studying something advanced beyond you can lead to some kind of improvement of your own technology/philosophy/whatever if not the whole thing. If you understand part of something you can apply that part to what you already have.
Why not study magic? If it has laws and functions in a certain way every time, does it not have cause and effect? Therefore, how can it NOT be studied scientifically?
Wait, are you saying Tsung-Dao kung fu is magic? I didn't know that! Bruce Lee would be the greatest mage of all time, then, no? :D
EDIT: Though now that I think about it, telling you that you are wrong about your own creation is a great idea! You don't know what you're talking about! Baah! >:D
Okay applying a scientific method to understand how magic in Harkovast works would be effective. Unfortauntely the conclusion such reaserch would lead you too (as I keep sayng) is that you cannot simply learn to do another cultures magic without embracing that culture entirely and abandoning your own culture. If you wantto be able to work Golta magic to make your pyronite better, you need to become spiritually like a Golta. No amount of study will allow you to do it otherwise, any more than studying afish will tell you how to breath underwater or studying an areoplane teaches me to fly like super man.
You cna learn about magic and how it works, but how it works is as I have described above, there is no getting around this.
In other news… Learning martial arts is not magic. Learning martial arts that let you block swords with your forearms and punch in someones skull with your fist IS magic! This is why Tsung-Dao martial arts involve magical elements.
Okay applying a scientific method to understand how magic in Harkovast works would be effective. Unfortauntely the conclusion such reaserch would lead you too (as I keep sayng) is that you cannot simply learn to do another cultures magic without embracing that culture entirely and abandoning your own culture. If you wantto be able to work Golta magic to make your pyronite better, you need to become spiritually like a Golta. No amount of study will allow you to do it otherwise, any more than studying afish will tell you how to breath underwater or studying an areoplane teaches me to fly like super man.
You cna learn about magic and how it works, but how it works is as I have described above, there is no getting around this.
In other news… Learning martial arts is not magic. Learning martial arts that let you block swords with your forearms and punch in someones skull with your fist IS magic! This is why Tsung-Dao martial arts involve magical elements.
I was thinking that perhaps you can circumvent the 'you can't use another race's magic' if you figure a way to emulate it with your own. Perhaps it won't work as well, but it would be something, no? But if you say that there is no way, even if you understand how it works, to copy the effects (the EFFECTS, mind, not the magic. Raising the dead and raising spirits are 2 sides of the same coin, no? Similar effects, different magic. Usually. With technology it will probably work out differently, but who knows with magic?) of a different race's magic, then it is so.
I meant more in depth. The limits of each kind of magic, what EXACTLY each ability can do. Stretching the bounds with creativity, finding ways to use magic more efficiently, ect.
You mean you can't punch through people's heads with your bare hands? :O Going by old kung-fu movies, people can totally do that without magic. Totally.
More plausible would be if you were already expert in a magic and found new ways to apply it, rather than hoping to copy someone else's magic and expect to do it better than they did. You would still need to adopt the other races culture and mind set to learn any of their magic. Magic is not something you can learn from reading a book. You can study Golta your whole life and you wont be able to do what a Golta can do. Magic is an innate thing in Harkovast that comes from who a person is and the values of their culture.
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