Thread "Critiques? " in forum "Comic Talk and General Discussion *"

Posted at 6:07PM, Jul. 11, 2016

I was just wondering if there was anywhere on the Duck set up to receive critiques? If not would such a thing be a good idea?

Posted at 9:07PM, Jul. 11, 2016

We used to have an entire forum dedicated to that! But it closed due to lack of interest.
The main issue was that people would love to ask for critiques but hardly ever do critiques for anyone else, so it became mainly a forum where hundreds of people asked for free criticism and about 5 people did all the critiquing, when they felt like that XD

So it's tricky. Obviously that wasn't a good situation.
We have had threads that worked better though, like a person posts their comic, asking for a critique, but only AFTER they've done a critique for the person who posted before them. Even when it's just advice on new update pages.
You STILL had dickheads who'd only write a sentence or "great page" or whatever, but that can be fixed with a good moderator deleting those sorts of posts.

Maybe requite 150 to 200 words minimum?

What do you think?

Posted at 11:07PM, Jul. 11, 2016

How about 100 words? Your post was about 140 words. Asking for 200 words might be a bit much. Personally I could go back to my "the Critic" avatar and tell everyone how bad their work is.

"It stinks!"

Posted at 6:07AM, Jul. 12, 2016

True Critiquing isn't easy work - I don't think a lot of people get that!! You have to read the work deeper than most do, with an eye for art technique, plots, writing, etc.., and then find a way to shrink it into as few words as possible (I had to do this often in Grad School - it ain't easy)! It really is something people should be aware of before they just casually ask for it!

Posted at 4:07PM, Jul. 12, 2016

When I first posted I was thinking more along the lines of specifically art critiques, but more than that is a good idea - webcomics are far more than just art.

There is a "critique the person above you and receive a critique in return" thread in one of the forums that works quite well.

I was thinking along the lines of maybe even something that is effectively a webcomic where people post artworks or pages for comment?

Posted at 11:07PM, Jul. 12, 2016

That sounds like a good idea for a webcomic. Do it. Put out the word that you're accepting material for critique. Post it, and then a critical evaluation. Dissect the piece even with circles and arrows. Show what is right and how to make it better.

But pull no punches.
Always start with what is right.
When pointing out errors always include how to fix it or at least tweak it.
Solid examples.
And don't be upset if the person wishing the critique gets all defensive and doesn't follow a word of your advice.

That's the thing all the critique in the world won't make anyone better if they don't listen. Also it has to be remembered that most stuff is awful. Bad is cool as a rule, but sometimes "bad" IS BAD! If it sucks and someone won't listen don't be upset.

You have your work cut out for you.

Also, there may not always be a "wrong" way to do something, but there is always a "better" way. That is what critique-ing is about. That and correcting grammar. Grammar gots to be rightest all the times.

Posted at 6:07AM, Jul. 15, 2016

If I understand correctly, what irrevenant meant was a webcomic space where anyone could post an update in the form of a comic page or single image, which could then be critiqued by others in the comment section? More like a friendly free for all than your hatchet job bravo!

I quite like both ideas, but the free posting comment critique idea is not something I've seen done before. You'd have to publicise it a bit, but it could take off.

Posted at 3:07PM, Jul. 15, 2016

Btw, anyone who wants to get better at critiquing or develop a better critical eye for your own work, I highly recommend signing up to be a judge at the DD Awards ( https://next.theduckwebcomics.com/forum/topic/177528/ ). When you have to analyze and compare comics to each other in a confidential forum, you really get your brain in that mode of strengths and weaknesses, what works and doesn't, what makes a good comic, etc. Most of us know what we like and don't, but it's a different thought process to have to put it into words to explain why to yourself and other judges. The DDA judging forum has some of the best critiques ever (they are confidential, so they are very honest). If you judge, you'll develop that ability. I was never much good at it, but it's amazing how that comes out when discussing comics critically with other DDers.

This wasn't intended to be a plug, but seriously, go volunteer. Volunteer to judge a category in which you aspire to excel. I know it's a selfish reason to get involved, but I think of it as a bonus. It's one of the reasons I like to judge DD Awards.

Posted at 5:07PM, Jul. 15, 2016

Ironscarf wrote:
If I understand correctly, what irrevenant meant was a webcomic space where anyone could post an update in the form of a comic page or single image, which could then be critiqued by others in the comment section? More like a friendly free for all than your hatchet job bravo!

I quite like both ideas, but the free posting comment critique idea is not something I've seen done before. You'd have to publicise it a bit, but it could take off.

Dunno, we could use a few good hatchet jobs around here.

Besides, they say that those who can't do, criticize. And with over a thousand pages of unreadable drek under my belt, I have more than proven that I cannot do.

Posted at 6:07PM, Jul. 15, 2016

Oh I didn't mean they are any less fun, just that we've had at least one in the past. Harkovast had that review comic where you signed up to be publicly eviscerated and it was quite popular if I recall! Another one of those would be a sure fire hit, especially if it was as well made as your unreadable drek!

Posted at 8:07PM, Jul. 15, 2016

That was pretty much the example I had in mind. ;-D

There were also the various reviews on Lite Bites and We are the Duck. They have sometimes been pretty cruel. Though always also fair and honest it is hard not to sound cruel when pointing out something you didn't care for. I know I have adjusted my work because of what I have been told in reviews of my work. Especially having some tutorials on paneling and text and speech balloons pointed out to me.

Posted at 7:08AM, Aug. 11, 2016

I think it's important to have a dedicated forum, rather than a webcomic, so that the potential good advice of critiques is available to everyone in the community. Anyone logging on to the site can see the forums header up top, and go there if they choose to. But if critiques were in the format of a webcomic, it would be easy to miss by anyone who didn't happen to stumble across it. There are currently many snippets of good advice buried in the comments sections of many individual webcomics here, but nobody will ever see them, unless they happen to read every comment in the archives of every comic. I think it would be very beneficial for the community if everyone could see a bunch of good creative advice collected in one spot.

I occasionally participate in the critique forums at conceptart.org, and that is a pretty active forum. Many critiques are done in the form of paint-overs, where guidelines, changes, notes, etc. are drawn right on top of a copy of the piece in question. In my experience, that is the closest to how critiques are done in the design industry: post up a print-out, and your art director scribbles all over it with a fat red marker. There are many times when I have wanted to give this kind of feedback on this site, but the comments sections of individual webcomics don't allow for embedded images.
I think if artists were to post just specific pages (or panels, or script pages)and ask for advice on specific things, it would present a task that is bite-sized enough to encourage a lot of feedback.

Posted at 9:08AM, Aug. 11, 2016

That sounds like a good idea. I've seen forums like that and they have been really good, although I'm not sure how well it would apply to story telling but for art and presentation they would be very good.

Posted at 12:08PM, Aug. 11, 2016

What about a forum that was specifically for offering critiques? So to start a thread you would have to be offering to do some critiquing. Instead of asking for critiques. and the critic could lay out their ground rules and what people could expect.

Posted at 1:08PM, Aug. 11, 2016

Or maybe a comic creator could also have the option of requesting a critique of a particular page in their comic, and request that the critique be posted in the critique forum? That way, the advice would be available for everyone to see and benefit from.

Posted at 2:08PM, Aug. 11, 2016

Genejoke wrote:
That sounds like a good idea. I've seen forums like that and they have been really good, although I'm not sure how well it would apply to story telling but for art and presentation they would be very good.

I've done some critiqueing on writing forms. They can vary from lessons in grammar to character motivation and snapping up dialogue.

And editing. Knowing when to drop a superfluous scene and how often a proofreader can catch all the times the writer repeats himself.