Thread "If WW2 was the Tolkien universe..." in forum "Comic Talk and General Discussion *"

Posted at 11:03PM, Mar. 30, 2020

If WW2 was the Tolkien universe, which countries would be which sides/forces?
This is totally subjective and you can support it with any argument you like…

Straight away I'll say the Germans and the Axis were the forces of Sauron- Orks, goblins, trolls, men of the east, and the fallen kingdoms.

I'm going to say the British Empire were the elves, because they're seperated on an island to the west, they're a main player but there are fewer of them and they're an older country than the US and the original source of much of its culture. The rest of the empire would be the far flung elven groups.

The US are the humans: way more of them and much better with production and building. A younger people, not as set in old ways, making and producing at an amazing rate. Not bourne to the conflict and only just helpers the first time (WW1) but willing to see it out till the end and take a much more substantial role…

The Soviets… They're tricky. But to fit with my paradigm I'll say they're a Rohirim horse people. Lots of them, a bit harder to sway to the right side and it could have done either way at some point, but absolutely essential to turning the titde.

The Japanese are the men from the eastern kingdoms (not imaginative but I'm running out of steam). Mysterious, have their own goals. Very ruthless and unprovoked.

The Italians are the forces of Saurumen… They had a lot of potential and wanted to play along but resulted in nothing and their leader dead before it was even over.

Umm… France are the Dwarves? Maybe those overrun at the mines of Moria? I dunno… They have a long and illustrious battle history but this time something just happened to them… they come back with a vengeance though.

And everyone else is part of some allied faction. Like Greeks being an Elven group that were overrun early, that sort of thing.

Posted at 1:03AM, Mar. 31, 2020

It's more complex than that with each group having elements of several combatants.

Like Gondor is Britain, as in Britain stands alone and is under siege and Denethor is a combination of the deluded appeasers and pro-Nazi factions and Gandalf is so very Churchillian. Those dive bombing nazgul and dragons are a bit obvious as Stukas. And the elite orcs are so very much the SS.

Funny that the symbol of the Rohan happens to be the white horse of the house of Hannover and Rohan is a real noble house in France though the names and characters are very Anglo-Saxon with a veneer of Norman horsemanship added. Perhaps maybe the Parthian horse peoples but they were as much Lancers as archers so I'd go with Normans. So of course that makes the Rohirram the Royal Armour Corps and the Royal Tank Regiment or should I say the Rohan Tank Regiment? Of course since one hobbit rides with them, that is the typical British "tankie"

Posted at 4:03AM, Mar. 31, 2020

Tolkien said explicitly that Middle Earth is pre Roman Britain + Ireland.

That said, Tolkien totally was influenced by WW2 and also by WW1. He himself was right leaning and near to the cultural tendencies that merged into nazism (late romanticism, nationalism, etc.),but he refused nazism that he believed was a form of barbarism.

So Saruman represents the tendencies of a certain cultural side that Tolkien believed was originally good but then became bad, Sauron and the orks are the nazis, southern men could be Italians.

I think all humans in Middle Earth would be Britons, while the Americans aren't there (as there is nobody in Middle Earth who has an higher productive capacity than Sauron) and the Soviets aren't there because Tolkien totally hated them.

Posted at 6:03AM, Mar. 31, 2020

marcorossi wrote:
Tolkien said explicitly that Middle Earth is pre Roman Britain + Ireland.

Which is totally ironic because all the names and culture is right out of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle with only the elves reflecting pre-Roman Britain and Ireland.

By the way there is a documentary narrated by Bilbo himself Ian Holm called 1066: the War for Middle Earth that uses the many parallels between Tolkien and late Anglo-Saxon England and the Norman's and Norsemen to tell the story of that seminal year.

The Dwarves are totally Norsemen with Nordic names, battle axes and language.

Tolkien was a solid conservative and put so much Churchillian language into Gandalf with him reawakening Theoden and talking to Denethor in Gondor.

Helms Deep bears more than some semblance to the siege of Tobruk or Stalingrad.

A contemporary work directly based on World War 2 was the last part of Once and Future King.

Posted at 6:11PM, Nov. 23, 2020

marcorossi wrote:
That said, Tolkien totally was influenced by WW2 and also by WW1. He himself was right leaning and near to the cultural tendencies that merged into nazism (late romanticism, nationalism, etc.),but he refused nazism that he believed was a form of barbarism.

So Saruman represents the tendencies of a certain cultural side that Tolkien believed was originally good but then became bad, Sauron and the orks are the nazis, southern men could be Italians.

I think all humans in Middle Earth would be Britons, while the Americans aren't there (as there is nobody in Middle Earth who has an higher productive capacity than Sauron) and the Soviets aren't there because Tolkien totally hated them.

Interesting!
Maybe Saruman represents the Vichey French? Hmmm!
I think the Southerns would be the Japanese.
I'm not sure who I'd peg the Italians at because they changed sides. That's tricky.

Posted at 1:11AM, Nov. 24, 2020

The analogy works best for 1938-41. The Czech Crisis until Operation Crusader. The siege of Minas Tirith is like nothing so much as the Battle of Britain with bits of Tobruk thrown in. That's when a lot of it was plotted out and the part of the war that Tolkien said influenced the trilogy the most.

You really want to strain credulity and say the Battle of Pelannor Fields is El Alamein and the attack on Mordor is the D-Day invasion with all Churchillian fears of getting bogged down on the Continent again. Everything saved by the eagles is the success of strategic bombing and the RAF.

And those Hobbits wandering around Mordor are a tommies and his officer caught in the middle of it trying to muck their way through to the green fields beyond so they can see blighty again. Those parts are very much from Tolkien's experience in the trenches in WW1. Any number of military historians have commented on this.

Posted at 8:11PM, Nov. 24, 2020

Very cool!