I really do not get it. As Comic Book writers we supposed to write comics that is entertaining and awesome. Not something like…Snowflake and Safespace, and have Batman go to high school, is Chinese and have a gay uncle. I mean, to be honest in really do not care what they write, I know it isnt for me. Probably it could be for the people who happens to like Snowflake and Safespace or Gotham High. I know if I dont want to tread a book, I'm not gonna buy it. Simple. Out of worry out of mind. Buy something, look for something worth your time. And as comic book writers and artist, for some reason, we attack customers.
Now, here is my problem.
Sometimes we get shit from people and right bow our patience is very thin. This is a progressive field of work so yeah, we are gonna be "left-leaning". However, there will be some comics that will preach and preach and preach. We get it. Try telling a story, if you want to put your political beliefs in there, fine, but make it subtle. Not to say Stan Lee was subtle in his political messaging, but he wrote in a way that is both informative and entertaining. Try not to pander, people hate that.
Now will there be some racists and misogynists in the fandom? Yes? Do they have the biggest megaphone? Probably. Are they the majority? No. Why are you worrying in what they have to say? Don't.
Not everyone who differs from your politics is not always a racist, or a misogynist, or a homophobe, or whatever. Some may just have some criticism, some constructive, some dont. Dont treat all criticism as bad. Treat them as a voice to be heard. Listen.
I dont know an I coming off terribly? Because I'm seeing this alot on Twitter.
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Comic Talk and General Discussion *
Anger in the Comic Industry
El Cid wrote:
The situation may be irreconcilable. The people writing this dreck have no interest in holding a dialogue. The criticisms are valid, they know they're valid, and they don't care to address them. So without dialogue, there's nothing left but insults and posturing.
That's true. I just want to go ahead and say that, though their criticism are true and valid and everything, how they approach it is kinda…strange and off and kinda racy at times.
Like there was one dude who said, "ohmerged why is spiderman/ariel black". I'm just like…ok and? Don't like the change, don't read it. There are plenty of Spider-man comics out there.
And for them to disrespect people who are in the comics industry is sad. I mean, yeah do some do come off as unprofessional, yeah, but its not a lot.
Some of them just enjoy what they love and I respect them for that. Like, I can NEVER measure up to them and everything and I am trying to go ahead and make my web-comic worth reading.
I feel like "the respect for one man" has been thrown out the window in exchange for ratchet and uncouth exchanges.
There needs to be dialogue about the state of comics without hurling insults and…yes wishing these people lose their jobs.
That is when I say, "Okay, that's not cool."
Banes wrote:
Yep. It's a weird time in culture, and in the mainstream arts.
Actually it's a golden opportunity for independent creators to create the alternative options!
Yeah, I agree! It does open the window for independent creators to spread their wings and offer readers alternative options if they so wish to switch.
Just imagine a Drunk Duck Cinematic Universe of some sorts in the future lol
I hope any alien civilisations listening in to all this will realise the people who kick off on Twitter and YouTube (often at the same time) are not the best representatives of our species, just the ones who shout loudest and longest. Sound and fury, signifying nothing.
It would be nice to think independent creators could benefit in some way, but so far the only independents I've seen benefit are the disenfranchised pros and their sidekicks who make publicly hating stuff their USP. I'm an eternal optimist though, so let's keep chipping away.
Ironscarf wrote:
I hope any alien civilizations listening in to all this will realize the people who kick off on Twitter and YouTube (often at the same time) are not the best representatives of our species, just the ones who shout loudest and longest. Sound and fury, signifying nothing.
It would be nice to think independent creators could benefit in some way, but so far the only independents I've seen benefit are the disenfranchised pros and their sidekicks who make publicly hating stuff their USP. I'm an eternal optimist though, so let's keep chipping away.
And there is where I have a problem. Why would anybody (unless that said person is just openly malicious such as threatening to murder or rape so and so) if you are a comic pro or an independent creator go out of your way to threaten, deplatform, or otherwise block other creators who may want a chip of that pie of being recognized or at least lend in their 2 cents. When I get criticized for my work, I don't blacklist or anything that malicious like that/ I hear them out. And if its valid, I'll have a second look, but if they are just trolling, I just laugh, joke around, and smile. I dunno, am I making sense?
Some of it has to do with closely held belief systems. Another phrase for it might be "pushing an agenda."
These accusations start with some kind of remark or a the isn't "inclusive" or respectful to a group or viewpoint; or conversely the work or person is perceived as too accommodating to said groups and views and the insults build up from that difference of opinion.
The terms "snowflake ", "political correctness ", " social justice warrior" and "woke" are often thrown around.
People get passionate and personal. People are so sensitive (the supposed snowflake) that they have to define pronouns or call out " microaggressions " and are "triggered " by words. In point of fact it's the kind of behavior some would associate with the proverbial middle school playground.
As far I'm concerned that's what it all boils down to. People regressing down to childhood in response to perceived threats that amount to nothing more than
"I don't like that and you're stupid."
"No you're stupid and I'm going to beat you up so hard your mother will feel it, nyah!"
And supposed adults are back on the playground acting like ten to twelve year olds.
And no one says the obvious fact that they're all acting like children because one doesn't want to be called out as insensitive or -phobic.
Get over yourself kiddies, time to be an adult and realize life isn't all warm, fuzzy, happy sunshine bunnies.
It's not quite as 'innocent' as that though. Some creators discovered that pushing the divide could get their work crowdfunded on the basis that they are sticking it to the man (they would probably prefer the term 'soyboy'). The more they stir the pot, the more they ride the wave of righteous anger, the more money they make.
I never said anything about innocence. Many of these things are anything but. As several child psychologists said to me , children are vicious selfish monsters and have to taught to be otherwise.
So there is the malicious quality of sticking to someone especially anyone who represents a tradition or a standard, especially one labeled "normal" It becomes an invitation for someone with their agenda to attack it or exploit for their own purposes.
Just like the victimized children on the playground suffer from everything they say or do because it be taken and used against them.
Yes sorry that came off as if I was quoting you. It was my choice of word and I was just trying to highlight the difference between two groups of people who just plain hate each other (the 'innocents'), and others who want to encourage that for their own financial gain.
Not to mention the fact that some of the people in the industry will try to push politics into their comics. I'm not saying that it is not a good or bad thing. I tend to do it myself, in fact the late Stan Lee has done so in his comics decades ago.
I go for the school of thought of, "if you do not agree, fine, we can still hang".
Like, am I right wing in some cases? Yeah. Am I left-wing in a lot of cases? Yep. Do I demean or riodicule anyone based on their beliefs? Nope. Because it is not adult.
It's like we are living in High School—and not the Musical kind. I'm talking about the Mean Girls kind—where everyone is a Mean Girl…even though you have a sausage, you are a Mean Girl lol.
MegaRdaniels
It's like we are living in High School—and not the Musical kind. I'm talking about the Mean Girls kind—where everyone is a Mean Girl…even though you have a sausage, you are a Mean Girl lol.
No, junior high. :D 🤣🤣
bravo1102 wrote:MegaRdaniels
It's like we are living in High School—and not the Musical kind. I'm talking about the Mean Girls kind—where everyone is a Mean Girl…even though you have a sausage, you are a Mean Girl lol.
No, junior high. :D 🤣🤣
We must not speak of that place that should not be named!!!!
Speaking as someone who has worked with and collected both Marvel and DC in past, the major mainstream superhero comics are just a disaster. We are living in what is essentially the era of fanfiction in almost every creative industry, and there's very little degree in those larger companies of interconnectivity, very little awareness of (or care for) other creators even working at the same place, and there's also very low respect for readers, whether new or old.
It's also something that unfortunately goes unnoticed by plenty of people that both Marvel and DC have, most especially since the turn of the century, relied on setting people at each other's throats in order to sell their books. They sell them on controversy, and the way they do that is by basically baiting the largest groups of their readers and critics into fights. The fights make more publicity noise than the comics ever could, since people are now sick of "events", death "events", marriage "events", and every other kind of shallow attempt at sensationalism.
Now it is just going straight for the throat and prodding the hornets' nest. That's what they do. It's also one of the reasons why I don't support Marvel, DC, or any other major comic publisher who engages in these extremely unethical practices. I'm done. I don't need anything badly enough to be abused for the privilege of then giving them my money.
There are also, unfortunately, too many writers who don't think about what they're doing nearly enough, such as the unfortunate trend of replacing characters with supposedly more diverse ones…who already have their own identities and alter-egos and motifs, which these writers, perhaps well-intentioned, completely undermine with their antics and Marvel and DC refuse to promote. Their excuses ring kind of hollow, as an Avengers fan who endured decades of Marvel saying the team was impossible to promote and they couldn't make anything out of the characters. Funny how things change when you actually try at all. And of course the people jumping on the bandwagon immediately lash out at any even legitimate criticisms because they're essentially just waiting for a target, or more accurately an outlet.
Webcomics are, in my opinion, the future largely because they don't tend to do things like that. We're never going to get the representation or content in general that we want out of Marvel or DC. It's just not happening. To keep supporting them and hoping that they're one day going to suddenly change and respect any of their readers or characters is a vain hope. The only thing I can really praise Archie Comics for is consistent, successful opportunism over the years, which at least reflects a mindfulness to their readership and society around them. Marvel and DC have none of that, and they really don't care. Most of their would-be auteurs are nuts power-tripping on the official stamp of approval…which is worthless now. But we have that obsession with "canon" and "official" from the latest generation of fawning fanatics, and that's what the big companies quite literally bank on. And don't think I'm saying that to accuse the latest generation of creators, because I know enough of the previous generations of them, and they're all some stripe of crazy! Some are the good kind, and most are people you really don't want to hang around.
It's not like they were always the only game in town, either. They're not even that today. People just constantly look to them, and other big labels, to set the standard for the industry. But they're the low point of the industry, the dumbed-down nonsense that they shovel to the masses, and some of those masses eat it up with a spoon. And as long as that happens, no matter what the medium, the industry, or the masses involved, they're going to keep doing it. Until the last penny is squeezed out of the industry, they're going to keep trying. And if history is any indication, they're going to keep ignoring what anyone wants and instead dig the hole deeper until they manage to put an end to their own toxic nonsense. Their style of entertainment is: disposable.
To make a long story short (too late!), I agree with MegaRdaniels that the way things are being done at present is a mess. Not everyone who differs from one's opinions is evil or necessarily even wrong, and to assume that their opinions are invalid because you imagine them to be is just illogical and unreasonable. Sure, there are plenty of them who are, but there are also plenty of people who have legitimate criticisms, and major industry has to be mindful of those.
Webcomics don't, really. You can (and should) create what you want, most of all. If anyone doesn't like it…too bad! They can read something else. But when you're trying to appeal to broad audiences and set the standards for major industry, you can't do that. Marvel and DC both are so desperate that they're weaponizing their own customers against each other, and that is just intolerable. I will disagree with some and say…yes, a lot of these writers shouldn't be rewarded by being given jobs that set them up as official storytellers. We need people who can actually write the stories and be respectful to all their readers. Abusive people should not have positions that set them up dealing with people and making a disaster of it. It's a blessing that Dan Didio was finally fired, but it's just not enough.
I have zero love or respect for any right-wing idiots in my life, but the way I think is best to deal with that is just to write things they aren't interested in. I don't want to deal with them, so I'll write something they're not going to read. You can't really do that with broad audience superhero comics, but if you are going to try, at least put forth enough effort to make it entertaining. You can do it. You just have to actually try, instead of relying on controversy selling your title or manipulating real people into real fights with each other because there's no other way to get eyes on your work. That's just disgraceful.
hushicho wrote:
Speaking as someone who has worked with and collected both Marvel and DC in past, the major mainstream superhero comics are just a disaster. We are living in what is essentially the era of fanfiction in almost every creative industry, and there's very little degree in those larger companies of interconnectivity, very little awareness of (or care for) other creators even working at the same place, and there's also very low respect for readers, whether new or old.
It's also something that unfortunately goes unnoticed by plenty of people that both Marvel and DC have, most especially since the turn of the century, relied on setting people at each other's throats in order to sell their books. They sell them on controversy, and the way they do that is by basically baiting the largest groups of their readers and critics into fights. The fights make more publicity noise than the comics ever could, since people are now sick of "events", death "events", marriage "events", and every other kind of shallow attempt at sensationalism.
Now it is just going straight for the throat and prodding the hornets' nest. That's what they do. It's also one of the reasons why I don't support Marvel, DC, or any other major comic publisher who engages in these extremely unethical practices. I'm done. I don't need anything badly enough to be abused for the privilege of then giving them my money.
There are also, unfortunately, too many writers who don't think about what they're doing nearly enough, such as the unfortunate trend of replacing characters with supposedly more diverse ones…who already have their own identities and alter-egos and motifs, which these writers, perhaps well-intentioned, completely undermine with their antics and Marvel and DC refuse to promote. Their excuses ring kind of hollow, as an Avengers fan who endured decades of Marvel saying the team was impossible to promote and they couldn't make anything out of the characters. Funny how things change when you actually try at all. And of course the people jumping on the bandwagon immediately lash out at any even legitimate criticisms because they're essentially just waiting for a target, or more accurately an outlet.
Webcomics are, in my opinion, the future largely because they don't tend to do things like that. We're never going to get the representation or content in general that we want out of Marvel or DC. It's just not happening. To keep supporting them and hoping that they're one day going to suddenly change and respect any of their readers or characters is a vain hope. The only thing I can really praise Archie Comics for is consistent, successful opportunism over the years, which at least reflects a mindfulness to their readership and society around them. Marvel and DC have none of that, and they really don't care. Most of their would-be auteurs are nuts power-tripping on the official stamp of approval…which is worthless now. But we have that obsession with "canon" and "official" from the latest generation of fawning fanatics, and that's what the big companies quite literally bank on. And don't think I'm saying that to accuse the latest generation of creators, because I know enough of the previous generations of them, and they're all some stripe of crazy! Some are the good kind, and most are people you really don't want to hang around.
It's not like they were always the only game in town, either. They're not even that today. People just constantly look to them, and other big labels, to set the standard for the industry. But they're the low point of the industry, the dumbed-down nonsense that they shovel to the masses, and some of those masses eat it up with a spoon. And as long as that happens, no matter what the medium, the industry, or the masses involved, they're going to keep doing it. Until the last penny is squeezed out of the industry, they're going to keep trying. And if history is any indication, they're going to keep ignoring what anyone wants and instead dig the hole deeper until they manage to put an end to their own toxic nonsense. Their style of entertainment is: disposable.
To make a long story short (too late!), I agree with MegaRdaniels that the way things are being done at present is a mess. Not everyone who differs from one's opinions is evil or necessarily even wrong, and to assume that their opinions are invalid because you imagine them to be is just illogical and unreasonable. Sure, there are plenty of them who are, but there are also plenty of people who have legitimate criticisms, and major industry has to be mindful of those.
Webcomics don't, really. You can (and should) create what you want, most of all. If anyone doesn't like it…too bad! They can read something else. But when you're trying to appeal to broad audiences and set the standards for major industry, you can't do that. Marvel and DC both are so desperate that they're weaponizing their own customers against each other, and that is just intolerable. I will disagree with some and say…yes, a lot of these writers shouldn't be rewarded by being given jobs that set them up as official storytellers. We need people who can actually write the stories and be respectful to all their readers. Abusive people should not have positions that set them up dealing with people and making a disaster of it. It's a blessing that Dan Didio was finally fired, but it's just not enough.
I have zero love or respect for any right-wing idiots in my life, but the way I think is best to deal with that is just to write things they aren't interested in. I don't want to deal with them, so I'll write something they're not going to read. You can't really do that with broad audience superhero comics, but if you are going to try, at least put forth enough effort to make it entertaining. You can do it. You just have to actually try, instead of relying on controversy selling your title or manipulating real people into real fights with each other because there's no other way to get eyes on your work. That's just disgraceful.
TRUTH! And I didn't know you worked with Marvel or DC. Dang its like everyone here had some comunications with them somewhere or somehow though. Before I started posting my comics, I used to dream of being like "the next One (from One Punch Man)" or at least be picked up by a major publisher if I worked hard enough.
Boy has time changed.
And you are absolutely right, this sort of "marketing" is unethical. Both companies should be ashamed of themselves. Now, I'm afraid that if I push something like my webcomic "Stringy and Mopy" or "Juniper" I would be hauled off as some sort of sexist, racist prick who like to screw my sister in my trailer because…derp!
Look, I am as left-wing as it gets, but if there is one, and I mean one thing they are absolutely correct about is that these companies do not care about their customers. These companies owe their customers an apology. And again, the reason why I am no longer interested is because of someone like Danny Kibblesmith or someone like Dana Schwartz might look at a character I worked on, like Snow White (perfect example) as a regressive take on a man looking how a woman of color looks. Tbh, I took a BIG risk making this character, crossed my fingers hoping I was not hauled off as a sexist, and I posted on this site first for some feedback.
But lo and behold…imagine the torturous screams of Karens and SJWs (they are not left-wing, they are just people who are easily triggered by anything).
Look, they can write whatever they want to write, that's fine. But do not attack the fans if they have some legitimate concerns (like why in the hell is Bruce Wayne is attending public high school; why is Bruce and the Joker fighting over Catwoman? Why is the author making a Gossip Girl fanfic) and not borderline racist (Bruce Wayne being Chinese, Selena Kyle being Latina, and Alfred Pennysworth being Bruce's {not butler} homosexual Chinese uncle).
Having diversity is okay, that I have no problem. The problem I have is, like Stan Lee would always say…what is the story?
And I think that is what we are all missing in these outlets. What is the story?
Courting controversy is a marketing strategy.
Look no farther than the publicity departments of the studios in classic Hollywood. It's a lot raunchier now but the same basic principle and it sells.
Just as the scandal mongers and gossip columnists were often paid assets of the publicity department of the studios, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the comic controversy and hatred was instigated by the companies to sell their product. Also, they could purposely reinvent traditional characters as borderline parodies to market them.
In other words, the kind of uncaring, cynical world that @hushicho describes. They see controversy as sales and really don't care what they have to do to get it. They own the market, so they can play it any way they want and feed their egos.
Marketing at its finest. Maybe they binge watch Mad Men for pointers. And the sublime slides into the ridiculous.
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