Somewhere on a data cd (along with older penis stuff) is a screen shot of penis as the #1 comic, right beside gods of the arr Kword. It only was up there because it updated before Elija & Azzu that particular day. It used to be in the top thirty, penis was a daily feature on the front page. Now I feel special for being in the top 50-100 range, with hardly any front page exposure.
Although penis is currently the #2 horror comic!
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Comic Talk and General Discussion *
Breaking DD's 'Glass Ceiling'
I miss the DD anthology as well (I was hopeing to enter one day). I think bringing that back could be a great way to get names out there that arnt regularly (or irregularly) in the top lists.I suffer from paranoia and i think that the Glass Ceiling on DD is a freaking hallucination.
I still believe the GlassCeiling is a device created by the minds of people who want to think there's something in their way so they have something to overcome. Sometimes people need a block in order to convince themselves to keep going, that they'll be acomplishing something even more special than the simple act of creating.
DD is a community driven site, if the community prefers "ComicX" over "ComicB" then X will rise and B will fall, same goes for visitors.
There is preference in DD, but i's not from part of the administration, it comes from the people who read the comics, they are the ones who decide who stays in the top 10 and who doesn't, if the artist made something to earn the heart f the community and create a loyal fanbase, then that person will rise to the top, if that person is doing something to keep them, then that person and his\her comic will stay.
And on the subject of PS plugging their stuff on DD, i have taken advertising and marketing classes at the university, and i can safely say that it is a perfectly valid strategy (as long s they don't break the beautiful thing we have here).
"I beg of you M. Ducker. Tear down this ceiling!"
How can there be a "glass ceiling" on something that (a) has no real financial rewards to speak of, and (b) is totally user-content driven? This is the perfect democracy on DD–everything is based on the interests of the readers and nobody is getting paid a salary, so it's all labor of love and pursuit of excellence on a singularly personal level.I think this is the truest statement I've read in this whole thread… in the end it boils down to your own personal attitude and skill level. As creators we are virtually faceless and so there is nothing to discriminate between us… you can't tell if someone's a woman, man, black, white, gay, straight, rich, poor, whatever, on the net - we all start on an even keel. This idea of a glass ceiling, from what I understand it meaning that some people cannot reach the top spots because of something they can't help such as their gender… is silly. We're all just people behind keyboards doing what we love.
Some people will be more successful than others… that's the way things are. I'm relatively popular here - I'm often in the top ten and I can honestly say it's quite a warming feeling to log into DD and see my comic in the top five sometimes… But I'm well aware that there are people who get much muuuch more pageviews than me~! I'm aware that they have more skill than me and more connections than me and update more regularly than I do… Goddam I'm jelous of them! XD But I try to put my energy into bettering myself so I can get up there with them rather than complain and get depressed about it. And I'm sure those people who I consider to be "at the top" have people THEY look up to who THEY consider is better than them in some way… like I said, in the end we're just people at computers. People don't just magically appear at the top of these rating lists… it takes years and years of practise to become a good artist or a good storyteller. Often they have been working at their comics for prolonged periods of time and have vast archives… they only advantage they have over people rated lower than them is a dogged determination to keep their comic going. Even sub-par artwork and storylines can get to the top if the author is determined enough… I could name a certain famous published webcomic that I personally see no merit in but I won't… maybe I have a twinge of jelousy there but at the same time I think, "If they can do it so can I!".
People who are at the top deserve to be there! Why can't they get some extra publicity considering how much work they put in to give you awesome FREE comics to read? They don't get paid for putting their work on the net… if anything readers should be grateful creators have been so generous and have decided to share their work with them~ ^^; The creators could be spending their spare time getting a social life or something (haha, I should do that myself sometime '_' ) and keep all their stories and artwork to themselves.
Stating "situational unfairness" is just silly. EVERYONE starts off at the bottom. Charby, Craving Control, HBN, Gods of A, VG Cats, Megatokyo, Penny Arcade, whatever webcomic you can name… they were ALL at the bottom once getting 20 pageviews a day, probably feeling shitty and that it wasn't worth continuing… everyone has moments where they want to give up… but they carried on and worked damn hard to get where they are today and they were duly rewarded for their "productivety and posting effort"… and good for them! They demand respect not malice.
Yeah, I've had a few people accuse me of being in the top 5 because i'm signed with Platinum or something– that's not so. We did that by putting out a M-F comic and pimping all over the place and keeping the readership coming back with our Hero-Gram announcements, books, etc.
Anyways, my advice to anyone here, and that I take myself, is that you should probably be focusing on your own comics and getting better, rather than flaming on the internet. Been there, done that! The minute i stopped worrying about that stuff and put my nose to the grindstone and worried about story and characters, my audience grew and my work got better.
I only started making a webcomic because I had a story I wanted to tell and as long as there's at least one person reading them, I'll be happy. All I use the stats for is to see if there actually is one person reading it.
Me too. I was so excited to share my story with people beyond just my parents and roommates. :) So glad I can do that and that I can read other people's work too.
I only started making a webcomic because I had a story I wanted to tell and as long as there's at least one person reading them, I'll be happy. All I use the stats for is to see if there actually is one person reading it.
Agreed. I think that the people who approach comics in that way are the ones who end up in the top 500, and the top 100. They enjoy what they're doing.
Personally, I think I've fallen in love with my comic; not because I think it's particularly good, but because I love making it, and love the story. Ialus' ranking doesn't ultimately matter, in comparison to seeing my characters come to life, and to see the story in my head finally come to light.
It's hard to advance, because the higher up you go in rank, the better the comic(typically, the line's a little fuzzy there). But in general, the top 10 are popular for a reason, just as the 40 underneath them in rank. Moving up means having something that people like more than what already exists there.
I disagree with the idea of this place having a "Glass Ceiling", mostly because that word was coined to refer to women and minorities not being able to proceed beyond a certain point, but also because I don't see ANYthing that actually prevents anyone from succeeding, save their own abilities and limitations.
I disagree with the idea of this place having a "Glass Ceiling", mostly because that word was coined to refer to women and minorities not being able to proceed beyond a certain point, but also because I don't see ANYthing that actually prevents anyone from succeeding, save their own abilities and limitations.
Gah….
As it applies to the conversation, "minorities" are the comics that aren't in the top tier. Okay?
I think this thread had some good ideas that we need to put out. Since DJ and Amy have came down off their high horses, we should probably be more welcoming to them so that we can form the community drunk duck should be. We should be progressive and friendly, not fighting each other with flames. I could criticize anything if I tried, but whats the point anymore?
And DJ, you have gotten some favoritism from Platinum. You've got ads everywhere, I've noticed hero by night on penis's page. You have an unfair advantage in corporate sponsorship that someone like me doesn't have. I've built my audience through sheer internet charisma and internet drama. The same can be said of Ronson (or spang?) but not of Amy. Amy doesn't have ads for Charby every two drunk duck pages you go to. She doesn't get mentioned on Platinum Studios corporate page or plugged as "last years contest winner" every time the platnium studios book contest is mentioned. Its an unfair advantage having money, and I think its about time I started to throw some around the net. I swear, with just a minimal budget, I could make penis more popular than any of the "top tier" webcomics. By top tier, I mean ones that get hits in the millions. I bet I could do it in just under three months, and with much less money than you would think. If I told you how I'd do it, my ideas would be stole and used just like they always are. So I'm keeping my mouth shut on that until you see how I'd do it.
A gravity well in space is not "unfair" to space travelers if they have the means to detect it and a chance to avoid it. And that's why the "glass ceiling" doesn't truly exist: there's still a remote chance. Also, a couple people mentioned "unfair advantage" in reference to GoA-K and HBN… yet they rarely hit the #1 spot. I admire the fact that the #1 spot is occupied by someone who did no advertising and got there by sheer grit and determination, while the others who have so-called "corporate sponsorship" are eating her dust.
Its an unfair advantage having money, and I think its about time I started to throw some around the net.
Its not an unfair advantage to have money. You can buy ad space on all the big name webcomics, and if your work doesn't deliver the goods, people won't read your comic. If your comic has what it takes, word of mouth alone will vault it to the top soon enough. Heck, VGCats gives months of frontpage plugging to comics that Ramsoomair simply likes, and those comics reap the benefits of being quality reads.
I swear, with just a minimal budget, I could make penis more popular than any of the "top tier" webcomics. By top tier, I mean ones that get hits in the millions.
None of the top tier comics get daily traffic in the millions.
I bet I could do it in just under three months, and with much less money than you would think. If I told you how I'd do it, my ideas would be stole and used just like they always are. So I'm keeping my mouth shut on that until you see how I'd do it.
Right.
Hey, knock yourself out. Launch your scheme, spend your dough. People read what people like. Not what they're tricked into reading. If you wish to hatch a secret plan, I suggest a secret plan that results in a good comic.
And DJ, you have gotten some favoritism from Platinum. You've got ads everywhere, I've noticed hero by night on penis's page. You have an unfair advantage in corporate sponsorship that someone like me doesn't have… The same can be said of Ronson (or spang?) .. get mentioned on Platinum Studios corporate page or plugged as "last years contest winner" every time the platnium studios book contest is mentioned. Its an unfair advantage having moneyThose sound like fair advantages to me, man. :)
skoolmunkee speaks true, my friends. Keep in mind that Platinum's Comic Book Challenges are open to one and all. So everyone has a CHANCE to get corporate sponsorship.Well, if you've got the money and the time to travel to San Diego at the drop of a hat maybe. ;) But it is true, everyone has an even chance at these things… being a reliable and talented artist helps things all the more. The winners worked their way up from the bottom:
Yeah, I've had a few people accuse me of being in the top 5 because i'm signed with Platinum or something– that's not so. We did that by putting out a M-F comic and pimping all over the place and keeping the readership coming back with our Hero-Gram announcements, books, etc.If DJ hadn't worked so hard to keep his comic afloat when he WASN'T being sponsored by PS then he probably wouldn't have won the contest… even if he won on the idea alone if he didn't have a hardworking and persistant personality then nothing more would have became of it. His ads wouldn't be all over the place and he wouldn't have books coming out; he would have just been a name on a plaque on a wall somewhere as the "2006 winner" and that would be it. But he's worked as hard as anyone, if not harder, and he deserves good things! (sorry to use you as an example DJ!)
Gah….I don't get what you mean by this. So by comics not in the top tier do you mean comics that don't get many pageviews or comics that have weak content/artwork? If you mean weak content then surely they're not going to ever get into the top tier until they have better content? Not everyone can be at the top you know - only those whose work stands out. :( We could give a gold star to everyone who makes an effort but then we'd all be equal again anyway so there would be no point… this argument is going nowhere; there will always be better and worse people than you. You just need to either accept your order in things or work harder to get yourself higher.
As it applies to the conversation, "minorities" are the comics that aren't in the top tier. Okay?
I agree with others about Hero By Night. It would be hard to say, with the ads and Platinum's sponsorship basically saying "we recommend this comic" that it doesn't have an advantage over other comics… but I don't think for a second it's an "unfair" advantage. He won that contest fair and square. He won that opportunity because he took a chance and had what it took, and I wish him every success. To call it unfair seems sort of like sour grapes, really.
Totally. He was part of a legitimate contest that was open to all. And on top of that, let's not forget that DJ's been around for ages doing his own thing, like Yirmumah! and so on. He's networked with other artists and writers. In fact, DJ's exhibited all of the qualities that someone who got to the top the hard way SHOULD. Kudos.
But that's my point: people can't call it unfair if he won a contest by being the best at something that was open to all. Good point, Evil. :)
I've been following this thread from the beginning but I haven't chimed in because honestly I don't have really strong opinions on the question about favoritism or the glass ceiling theory. And pretty much the opinions I do have are much better expressed by some of the people already posting.
About the idea of favoritism, it hadn't really occurred to me. I figured the people who were at the top of the list had worked hard to get there, or had content that really stood out. I still kinda feel that way. I realize some people got there with no advertising, some people used a lot of advertising, but I think regardless of that, if there's nothing there worth reading, eventually even advertising won't help you. And don't get me wrong, I'm not anti advertising, I work in advertising. Bottom line is if the product sucks, you won't get return customers. So if you make it to the top, you must have a product that people want. Each product is probably unique in how it reached that formula.
I originally joined DD for the sole purpose of promoting my boyfriends comic. Shortly after joining, I convinced a couple good friends to also put their work up here on DD, so now I'm all about promoting them as well. Because of an offhand comment I made in a post here, someone even encouraged me to start my own comic, and on a whim I did, something I never had really thought I'd do. I don't consider myself an artist or writer here, I'm just having fun. I go along with the people who say they're happy just to put their stuff here and have even a couple readers. That's me. I update every day because I have all of 25 people who have actually faved me. If I subtract my friends and family who are "obligated" to read, that makes 20 complete strangers, who actually found my goofy comic interesting enough to want to catch the updates. That blows my mind and I'm very grateful to them for being so supportive and kind.
I haven't been around here long, so I can't comment on how the community used to be, and how it's changed, but one of the reasons I convinced my friends to join up and why I've pretty much thrown myself head first into DD is because of the community here. I've never looked at some of the other comic community sites, but the support I've found here is amazing. I don't think I need to look elsewhere.
I really think this place is awesome. The idea that we have so many talented people each doing their own thing, while simultaneously reading and commenting and critiquing other peoples stuff… the whole thing just feels like a great place for creative people to hang out. Forgive me for sounding mushy but I think it's a very nurturing thing. That being said, the issues about how to strengthen the community, and how to support each other, are what really interest me about this topic. marine's post really hit home with me in the points he made about supporting and recommending each other. I'd like to see the anthologies brought back. I was thrilled when I caught the Lola update today and saw alejkhan had started a new thing where in the update had done a mini review to support another comic, Nightmistress. I'm a huge fan of some of the community projects like Fusion, because they're fun, and it brings some of the comic creators together in unique ways. More people should get involved with this kinda of stuff!
I realize there are creators here who are very serious about taking their comics to the next level, whatever that level is. So I guess not everyone is into the community vibe but I think that success for one comic here, is success for us all.
I think I'm rambling now….
Anyway, just wanted to finally chime in.
Someone said about people being able to afford to go to San Diego at the drop of a hat– I'd like to say, I couldn't afford it last year, but I took a shot, spent my last 1200 bucks I had saved up for my Yirmumah comic's printing fund, and only had 7 days notice to get out there.
Charby is the perfect example of someone who isn't sponsored or advertised, but she's still at the top of the list. Platinum ran ads for Cowboys and Aliens for a long time in prime spots, but it still didn't stay in that top 5 read spot, but the press about the movie brought an influx of people reading which boosted it in the "most read" spot.
While "corporate" sponsorship is nice, it doesn't guarantee success or continued readership where they'll come back everyday. Again, Charby did all that without any help or advertising. Do good comics consistently, you'll have a massive awesome archive to sift through, etc. That's all there is too it.
Do good comics consistently, you'll have a massive awesome archive to sift through, etc. That's all there is too it.
This thread continues to be a very interesting read. The above quote has now been said by I believe 3 or 4 of the creators involved in some of the most read comics on the site. It was also something said frequently at Wizard World Philly. And it's also the mantra I kept chanting when I kicked my own butt to get back to the drawing board and restart my comic. I'm detecting a theme here.
:)
Of course I didn't even know I had a stats page until very recently. So, uh, yeah … I'm really just kind of focused on doing my comic right now. My personal goal is to get some pages done. Get some stories told that I've been sitting on for 5+ years.
But thanks again everyone for the helpful advice and insight.
Gah….I don't get what you mean by this.
As it applies to the conversation, "minorities" are the comics that aren't in the top tier. Okay?
What I mean by it is somebody has to be the minority for the analogy to make any sense. And its not the big dogs.
That said, the idea is bullshit. Nobody is holding anybody down. If anything, people are generally eager to help up-and-comers when they produce quality work. And the idea that it takes money is bunk, too. Money can't buy you talent.
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