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I don't post much here
You know I'm not going to gripe about this post–I could claim to be offended, but I just don't get it. How can there be a "glass ceiling" on something that (a) has no real financial rewards to speak of, and (b) is totally user-content driven? This is the perfect democracy on DD–everything is based on the interests of the readers and nobody is getting paid a salary, so it's all labor of love and pursuit of excellence on a singularly personal level.
The other advice I would give to someone who wants to go up in popularity is:
(a) Do something no one else is doing;
(b) Learn to draw (in 2D!), and
© Update consistently.
The latter is most important and the strip in question, Charby, is done by a creator who is almost religious with the frequency of her updates!
–TitanOne
Current artist, Craving Control
If I have anything else to owe my position to however, I think it's the title of the comic. I'm sure it gets a lot of clicks from people going "gee, that's a stupid name!" (seriously, a while back someone told me I should change the name to something better, less silly!) and I could also be getting traffic from people looking for that other comic with Vampirate in the title (which is a yaoi comic, so I'm sure some girls are disappointed to find none in mine, and some thought I stole the name!2002 comes before 2005, ladies.)
Eh, there's always going to be a "Glass Ceiling", in almost everything you do. Of course, glass can break quite easily, but that's rather besides the point. The popularity of a comic is based on a LOT of factors. What I've seen make a comic insanely popular is:
1: EFFORT. Good comics aren't produced in the five minutes before it gets uploaded. The most popular comics I've seen have artists who spend HOURS planning, drawing, writing, and setting up each page. They think about characters, interactions, plotline depth, foreshadowing, the reality of their world, etc. They decide on the best poses, angles, etc. for each panel.
2: BEING NICE: Not just to those who can help you, but to your fellow cartoonists/comickers/artists, and to your readers. Respecting them is a good solid step, but being sincerely nice stands out to people, makes them remember you.
3: GOOD STORY/ART: This is somewhat covered by Effort, but one or both of these things stands out on their own. A comic with horrible or simple art can skyrocket because of excellent writing. Good art does count, but I really feel it's the combination of excellent story/art that makes for a larger and more dedicated reader base. People have to like what they're reading.
4: DON'T LIMIT YOURSELF: Pandering to what you think the audience might like will get you temporary popularity at best. Focusing on a small bracket of people works for some senses, but it means not having wide appeal, which will mean not being as popular(if that's what you're looking for). The comics that don't limit themselves to a particular genre tend to do much better. Dominic Deegan, Charby, Elijah and Azuu, these comics all transcend different genres(if only for the sheer immensity of their comic size). And look at how popular they each are!
5: And probably MOST IMPORTANTLY: ENJOY WHAT YOU'RE DOING!: It's obvious when someone isn't happy with making their comic. The art suffers, the characters are flat, the story is boring, and the overall quality feels forced. Readers don't enjoy feeling like the artist is saying, "HAPPY NOW!?" or like they're being shoveled the dregs of someone's work. Someoen who loves what they're doing, it shows. The readers love what is loved by the creator.
All that said, I just have a mild complaint about your first post, or at least with some of the tone(Well, that, and the lambasting of Charby and Amelius, but I'm leaving that alone. It's all been said). From what I've seen, MOST of the artists in those top spots are shocked and surprised(at least to an extent) that they're there. Some aren't surprised, because they've put work into what they've done, but still. No one deserves to be attacked JUST because they've DONE WELL.
TnT, I'm confused. Are you saying we should respect your criticism, or not? I mean, you made an offhand comment on something you admit you haven't read, and when someone responds because something they care deeply about has been insulted, you suddenly blow the other direction? "Don't take it seriously"?
But in all seriousness now, you're missing the point. Amelius DOES get this kind of crap all the time. The attacks on her in the beginning of this post, which have already been apologized for and Amelius has already gotten over, were unwarranted, AND insulted her readers, which is what she was the most upset about.
Again: It was when her READERS were insulted that she got the most upset about.
Now, she's responding to your attacks, and you back off of them as though you didn't mean them, all to illustrate…what, that she gets upset over "nothing"? Fine. Congratulations, big man, you play the internetz GOOD.
Go ahead and talk about how other people need to get thicker skins, deal with insults and attacks better, whatever. There is nothing that will change your mind that Amelius deserves whatever she gets, and that she can't handle criticism. Just go right on ahead. ^_^
-Ozoneocean -I've warned about this earlier in the thread. Amy has already addressed the situation herself, this thread is for discussing popularity here at DD not attacking or defending particular users for what they post about other people.
I've been around a long time, not that anyone would notice it. This is the longest sustained burst of productivity that I have ever produced. A large part of it was seeing the response I was getting from readers here on The Duck. I agree with… oh, hell. I can't remember names. (I promise I'll get better the longer I am here!) But anyway, I do agree that places like Comic Genesis are a "community graveyard", only showing ANY sense of "loyalty" to their creators when you walk right up and get in their faces at conventions. I have a picture of me shaking hands with Chris Crosby in 2004 somewhere around here. Did I get a link from Superosity or Sore Thumbs? Hell no. lol
So Drunk Duck, of all the "alternative" places I could display my series got my vote. And has quickly become my "homepage" so to speak. And that's after (Hmmm… 1997, carry the 1…) a solid decade of self-hosting. My old homepage? A redirect to my page here. As for the glass ceiling… I just don't see it. You want to talk about "tough break" knocking a entrenched comic off the top of the popular list, head over to Smack Jeeves and try taking out Ransom as the top comic. Of the last TWENTY updates, I would say TWELVE were "filler" variety and now the comic is on "hiatus" while still holding the top position.
I'm not leaving here. I got into the top 1000 on my first try. I've been doing Starship Moonhawk since 1994, long before the internet as we know it. I'd love it if my readers talked to me a little more like they did before the 2005 crash, though. I miss that…
ipokino said:
<< To reply to Stacy. I never said anything about 'unfair' only that a glass ceiling does exist >>
Then you are speaking nonsense - a Glass Ceiling is, by definition, an unfair and discriminatory limit on success applied to someone as a form of discrimination - Generally, because of their Gender or Race. I mean, if you want to use words at random, knock yourself out. But this particular misuse of "Glass Ceiling" is very insulting to DrunkDuck, and very insulting to anyone who's ever faced a real Glass Ceiling in their life.
You can be unhappy with the Drunkduck system all you want - but they aren't discriminating against you, are they?
I'm sorry to be one of those people who gets all bent out of shape by something as old fashioned as the actual meaning of words, I'm sure I'm coming off as a ridiculous grouch. I apologize for being so dogged about something that must seem very minor to you. Nowadays, everyone is very happy using words in very loose and "creative" ways, and perhaps I just need to get with the program.
But honestly, I really hate it when the language of people who are discriminated against is stolen and abused by people who aren't being discriminated against. Real discrimination ruins peoples lives - their problems do not exist just to give you a snappy way to whine about DrunkDuck.
The folks who work hard to keep DD running do not deserve to be called discriminatory. Words have meanings.
Here's what answers.com gave me for "Glass Ceiling": "An unacknowledged discriminatory barrier that prevents women and minorities from rising to positions of power or responsibility, as within a corporation."
I dont think DD deserves that phrase. Do you?
- Stacey
First off, more comedic comments:
FLAME ON! Well done responding to criticism Amy! You've made me laugh pretty hard! This thread is filled with melodramatic webcomic bullshit that is the very reason why webcomics are so hated. Defending yourself on the internet is only funny when you're defending something as terrible as penis. Do you think John K goes around on message boards that say the ripping friends sucked giving out reasons why it doesn't? If I called anyone who watched or loved Ren & Stimpy a loser, would he come down from his high horse to say something? Watch the drama unfold as other people defend a cartoon they had nothing to do wth, nor understand why I mentioned it or its flamboyant creator.
Now to be a little serious, or at least attempt to…
(a) has no real financial rewards to speak of;;
I agree with StaceyMontgomery (see? I told you guys I'd remember names, eventually!). Unless it is your contention that somehow, some way, Platinum Studios in General and Drunk Duck in particular is "holding people down", that would be absurd in the extreme. In order for a true "glass ceiling" to exist, there would have to exist an atmosphere of active oppression against "unfavorable" comics. That just is not so here. Or anywhere on the net, really. Unless the "ranking" system is arbitrary, based on the owner's preferences.
*sigh* I give up. I refuse to give in to more flame-baits from you, TnT. You win, even though you blew my entire post out of context, you win. Obviously defending one's integrity and the people you care about is out of the question here, and you're just here to make me look worse than I already made myself look. I am ashamed enough as it is. I rarely stand up for myself and now I see why. I'm the laughing stock of the DD forums. God I'm such an idiot! I knew there was a reason I never felt welcome in here.
-ozone edit- Amy, we all love you, post more.
Please no one join in and turn this into a support Amy/against Amy thread. I just deleted posts by StaceyMontgomery and maciapaladin. They say they both love and support Amy as well, which is great guys, but keep it to PQs ok?
Amy, you're extremely welcome here at the forums, you should know that ;)
You don't post nearly enough though, we love to read your contributions.
Please people, no more with this Stuff against Amy, defending Amy, making the whole thread a defence or attack on Charby! That's called a flame war OK? That's what you doofuses are turning this into. I've deleted TNTs STUPID posts that clearly went against my advice NOT to post such things.
Anyone else that dose this will have their warning level raised.
For 3 reasons:
1. Don't attack other users.
2. DON'T DO IT AFTER A WARNED YOU NOT TO.
3. We don't tolerate flame wars.
Well, upon reviewing the thread, I've seen no convincing argument that the so-called "glass ceiling" actually exists. For there to be one, Platinum and Drunk Duck would have to actively pursue a policy of only promoting certain comics and not Drunk Duck as a whole. Unless someone has some compellingevidence to prove that, I recommend that part of the discussion be tabled. As for the "popularity" aspect, well, people like what they like. Until that changes, or until someone (hopefully me. ;P) comes up with something better, those numbers are carved in granite. Would everyone agree that's a fair statement?
Fair enough. What I gathered from the original post that started this thread, though, is that there is an implied hegemony of sorts here. The top comics stay the top comics forever by some kind of conspiracy on the part of Drunk Duck users. My contention is that I find it dubious to say that there is a concerted effort or even "favoritism" if you will, that is actively blocking anyone else from creeping into the top 35 comics or so. Keeping in mind that we are on the internet, I find it highly improbable that some 30,000 or so users rally every day and say: "I'm going to visit so-and-so's page whether they update or not just to keep such-and-such's comic off the top 10". Especially given the high percentage of folks with accounts themselves have comics to promote.
Keeping in mind that we are on the internet, I find it highly improbable that some 30,000 or so users rally every day and say: "I'm going to visit so-and-so's page whether they update or not just to keep such-and-such's comic off the top 10". Especially given the high percentage of folks with accounts themselves have comics to promote.What? You didn't get the memo? Aw man… I hope you're the only one or I'll have to send out all 105,000 copies again. That takes ages! :(
I can vouch for movement in the top 10. I've been on and off that list more times than…. well, I can't think of a suitable innuendo. But a lot. ;)
For example, I fell off about a month and a half ago (ish) due to a hiatus. It's taken me until this week to claw my way back up there… I got as far as #7 in strips, but am currently #9. It's not static enough to make me feel safe there, lemme tell you that much. ;) It's hard work to stay up there if you're in the lower numbers, and even if you're higher up you're not guaranteed to keep your spot.
What? You didn't get the memo? Aw man… I hope you're the only one or I'll have to send out all 105,000 copies again. That takes ages! :(
Again with the 'Unfairness' stuff. Can we get past this. There is Intentional Unfairness (Prejudice/Favoritism) and there is Situational Unfairness. Being at the bottom of a Planetary Gravity Well is a form of 'Situational Unfairness' from a space travel point of view. It requires an 'unfair' ammount of energy to climb out of the gravity well–whereupon, travel becomes fast, smooth and simple. DD's 'unfairness' is situational. As a Business–it has to conform to a business model that allows it to exist and profit. Directing attention to it's top performing Comics is necessary. It ameliorates this by having a nice Comic Spotlight. But the peak energy to get into the top rankings still exists…more later
Whatever happened to the annual "Drunk Duck Anthology" book that offered a selection of the comics on the site? Now with our corporate sponsership, we should be able to do that seasonally (four times a year) and flood the market with drunk duck stuff. I think EVERYBODY needs their time in the sun, from Chronic Sonic to penis to Tales From Tyrone, different strokes for different folks.
I miss the DD anthology as well (I was hopeing to enter one day). I think bringing that back could be a great way to get names out there that arnt regularly (or irregularly) in the top lists.
I still believe the GlassCeiling is a device created by the minds of people who want to think there's something in their way so they have something to overcome. Sometimes people need a block in order to convince themselves to keep going, that they'll be acomplishing something even more special than the simple act of creating.
Again, another cool idea, Marine. I think the thing that really made me think about this issue was when DD's default Browse page went from posting the absolute latest comic to post–regardless of ranking–to showing only the top rated books. I used to love posting a page and clicking on Browse to see my comic standing right there at the top of the line. Sure, it didn't last there for long, but darn if it didn't feel pretty good to see it there and dream a little. By having the Browser set to default to a page showing only the top DD comics–the 'glass ceiling' got a little harder to punch through. Make that a lot harder. Few people will click down more than a couple of pages. At least the way the Browser used to be set, productivity and posting effort was rewarded. Just my thought.
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