I'm not clear about the best way to report bugs. Not in this thread? In another the "I've found a bug" forum? or by selecting the side "feedback" on the preview site? do those post anywhere?
Use the "feedback" system there. You do have to make a simple account for it, but it's kind of a social bug reporting system from what I can tell. Once someone reports something, other logged-in people can say 'yes, this is happening to me too' which, I believe, raises the priority of the issue.
Oz and I are using a different system, we get slightly more direct access to the programmers, so you won't see the stuff we're reporting on that Feedback system for the most part. Don't let that discourage you, because they are keeping track of that system too.
Also, the two items I found are probably not bugs at all, they're either there and I can't find them or they're functions that haven't been added yet: (a) how to upload files other than comic pages and avatars (b) comic hits and rating
Both of those aren't there yet. I've raised the issue with them and we're told those are things which will be coming, but we don't have a timeline.
Asking for some kind of list is a good idea, although I suspect it might be too much stuff for them to try detailing everything about.
The day either Oz or skool quits, I'm GONE.
No pressure or anything! ;)
I'm sure if we get a new admin at some point it will be someone the community likes just as much. :]
*Posts sometimes appear in random order. *Missing a reply button at the bottom of the last post. *Increased difficulty in embedding video files. *Changed posting mechanism interferes with my firefox auto correct feature. *Can't delete posts after posting them. *All posts appear with "Last edited on…" even though they're the original unedited posts.
*And I fully support any and all changes to the current color scheme and arrangement for the forum. It could only be an improvement.
I hope you guys are also reporting these using that Feedback system. :] Thanks for helping with this though, I've just spent the last 3 hours just doing feedback on the new user registration and various issus around password resets (and a couple forum things, some of which PP just mentioned)
This is what I sent to them as a proposal for the forum changes. I just moved the buttons because, but I think the important bit is the change to the yellow background:
Edit: Product Placement, are the posts within a thread appearing out of order, or the threads within a forum? Is it the ones that were all dumped in on April 13th, or specifically the ones which have been added since then?
A few issues with "The Duck" 1- My comic layout does not work properly anymore. 2-All the links and adverts on my comic are gone.
The idea of premium member ship seems to deny the point of "the duck" (cause it wont be DD anymore.) If I have to pay for it…I might as well just host my comic on its own site.
If I cant post my links, ads and custom layout, this will probably be my next move. I dont even have a link to my forum anymore! I need my forum!
Edit: Product Placement, are the posts within a thread appearing out of order, or the threads within a forum? Is it the ones that were all dumped in on April 13th, or specifically the ones which have been added since then?
Newer posts seem to be in order but the posts in the threads that were dumped in were all over the place.
I just want to be sure that this will not be the case when the site content is properly moved over to the new site.
I have not used the feedback feature as of yet but I eventually will. For now however, it is time for sleep for me.
I would like clarification of the following details:
Are you removing the ability to code our own site in raw HTML? Can we only use templates?
If we can only use templates, what are the variables we can adjust for our comic's page specifically? Will the template editor be in HTML5 for support of newer browsers and possible further customization?
Yeah, new account registration seems to be broken. I've submitted some bug reports about that so hopefully it will be fixed soon.
I'm afraid I don't have the energy right now to add much to what Oz has said already, maybe tomorrow morning. :] The long and short of it is that some things were up for negotiation and some weren't, we did have opportunity to feed back to them about some things (which they variously implemented or not), and some things we just didn't know about.
It seems to be their trend that they want a few days to see what responses come in and then respond to those together, so we'll see what they have to say. I do think they could have explained a little more at the outset- I'm never sure how much we're allowed to say, and I'm not always comfortable explaining things on their behalf (besides not being an official response, I may be uninformed about current information, etc.)
Please just keep in mind that this is an incomplete preview, and some changes which are deemed necessary (like, a majority of people are suggesting the same change) or simple to do may still happen. Functionality will be added and bugs will be ironed out.
The practicality remains however that Drunk Duck is a very expensive site to run and probably has not actually paid for itself, ever. That's completely unsustainable and has killed smaller sites than this. From a business perspective, Wowio has to get something out of DD even if it's just the ability to pay for itself. As much as people hate ads, for some reason they are still the best way to make money off a site and Wowio has to work around that- which has affected some of the design and branding decisions. Some of the functionality changes are practical decisions as well. I think that DD has been very lucky to have all the abilities and customizations it has historically had, but the price for that has apparently been an unsustainable site.
As far as the HTML goes, they've told us that they'd like to ensure that users can still do all the things they want to do on their pages, but using some method which doesn't involve directly coding html.
I think that the css and button customization that's there now will take care of a large majority of the site's users, and is something we've been sorely missing since the big crash several years ago which wiped that out.
For everyone else I think it may be more productive to focus on what it is they like to DO which requires custom html, and communicate that to the programmers, so they can work on a solution for that. I am imagining they intend to make customizable modules you can drop into a page and reposition or something, maybe.
What kinds of things to users customize their html for? - customize "presentation" elements like color, bordering of image, etc - nonstandard navigation elements like prev and next placed to the side of the comic image, rather than below - rearranging page elements to maximize avialable space (like, above the fold) - add extra pages (characters, fan art, etc) - add menus (in various positions on the page) - link/banner exchanges - advertising (own - like deviantart pages, kablam stores, etc) - advertising (for revenue, like project wonderful) - web comic toplists and voting sites - trackers or metrics drop-ins - twitter, facebook, etc buttons - twitter feeds, shoutboxes, and other advanced integrated elements
Have I missed any out?
I guess that I'm in the minority here, but I really have no problem with the color scheme being too bright or hard to read. I sort of feel just the opposite in that it seems a bit boring, but I can live with it and it won't make me run elsewhere. That said, I too hope to see some alternate color choices, not to say that I would choose another set of colors, since what I am saying is that I have to see the options in order to determine if there is a better alternative, but as there aren't any now, I can live with it and it doesn't put any strain on my eyes. Although I do like your suggested fix with the lighter yellow boxes in the forums, skoolmunkee. As for customizing, I basically use the black template with just links to toplists and voting sites, although a lot of the other things mentioned above appeal to me too even if I don't currently use them, and at least having the option to use them in the future is a big plus.
One thing I posted in the feedback thing, I uploaded some pages and they appear in reverse order and I cannot change it save for deleting them.
I uploaded one then clicked the save and upload another. They were all going upon the same day but it meant that the one I loaded first is the latest page, which seems backwards.
The things we use rawhtml for (obviously). We want to put up our own ads, either just for more hits or to make money from our comics, and we want to make custom pages with links… custom pages like my Pinups page, which is html completely done by me, then uploaded… but then rawhtml allows me to create the link… and allows me to change my button graphics and where my navigation buttons are, etc… without rawhtml it's always going to be a template.
BUT, the main thing is, I want to be able to put my OWN ad banners on MY webcomic… just as I can right now.
It's funny, some have said, well WOWIO is listening to feedback… if they've read this thread they've got all the feedback they need… don't F**k with Drunk Duck. We like it as it is… we need a faster server, we need reliability… but the rest is perfect.
I should say I've already started uploading my comic onto another webcomics site. I'll move it to my own server soon… so, I have one foot out the door (like almost everyone else in the top 100)… so, if WOWIO carries on, DD… oh, sorry, TD, will be a site full of ads and gradeschool webcomics. If WOWIO is listening, as has been stated by the Admins, then listen carefully… you are destroying DD, you know you are destroying DD, but you think we'll just roll over and take it… you've VASTLY under-estimated us… you truly have screwed yourself into the ground.
The site looks nice, but I hope they keep the name "DrunkDuck". I don't know… something about that name sounds very unique to me while the current name of that site ("The Duck") sounds kinda… generic…
We've been told that the custom HTML will not come back. This wasn't something we were aware of before the preview site went live, and ozoneocean in particular is very unhappy about this. However Wowio do not seem open to negotiation on this.
Instead they are telling us that they want to provide as much of the same functionality as possible, but with a set of customization tools. So please see my list above, trying to organize "what users need out of page customization."
Ideally a set of templates, with the abilities to change colors and image elements, coupled with a series of drop-in widgets and layout tools will provide a huge amount of functionality. But I don't know what the programmers have planned. That's just me hoping.
BUT, the main thing is, I want to be able to put my OWN ad banners on MY webcomic… just as I can right now.
I'm not defending Wowio's decision, but removing the ability for users to put up their own ads does make sense on a few levels.
- User ads reduce the impact of the ads which are paying for space on DD, which is what pays for the "relibaility and faster servers" that benefit EVERYONE on the site. Those ads now have to compete for visitors' attenion and, if enough competition exists, may drive down clickthrough rates. (Additionally, letting users customize their html freely might give preferential placement to their own ads, or move the paid ads to undesirable areas of the page.) Some ad networks even require that they are the sole source of ads on the site, to ensure their dominance.
- Getting free hosting AND being able to make money off it with ads is kind of like double-benefits. It doesn't make business sense for Wowio to let people have that double dipping. Not only would they be paying for ALL hosting and support costs associated with your comic (as well as intangible elements like hosting a community your comic takes advantage of), they'd be letting you make money off that privilege (and at the same time, potentially reducing THEIR sole source of profit as mentioned in the first point). Yes, sure, it's nice for people to be able to make money off of webspace they get for free, but I can see how that would be considered too much. Perhaps you can't have both. In that respect, different levels of subscription might be a solution.
- A comic needs to be of a certain level of popularity to make any money off ads, the vast majority of comics on DD do not hit that level. Perhaps business-wise they realize they are alienating a small percentage of users (albiet one which brings in traffic and contributes to the community at a generally higher level), but the numbers may be in their favor here. Upsetting a smaller number of people to ensure provision of service for everybody could just be a pragmatic decision.
- If a comic is able to turn a profit from ads then perhaps it should have its own webspace anyway for a variety of reasons. I realize that argument means that it drives DD further down the road of "small comics, amateurs and mirrors" but that was already a giant percentage of DD's userbase.
I believe Wowio is also hoping they will be able to open up more opportunities for users to monetize on their comics themselves- a better-integrated DD Store, publishing at Wowio, etc. A good place to start looking might be WeVolt, their other comic hosting site. Those pages provide a lot of functionality layout wise as well as ways for readers to 'subscribe' to comics with small levels of donations, etc.
As ozoneocean said, he is pushing to get Project Wonderful back on because it provides networking benefits beyond just making people a bit of scratch. Wowio is not able to budge with the main ads though. Part of the reason we got such awful ads before was because with the non-exclusive adpsace and the poor website name, they were stuck using questionable ad services and a bunch of ads that other sites were rejecting.
I have one foot out the door (like almost everyone else in the top 100)
Please don't throw in statements like this about other people that you can't possibly speak for, it reduces the strength of your argument. Stick to your own experience and don't try to enlarge your point by saying things you can't back up.
- User ads reduce the impact of the ads which are paying for space on DD, which is what pays for the "relibaility and faster servers" that benefit EVERYONE on the site. Those ads now have to compete for visitors' attenion and, if enough competition exists, may drive down clickthrough rates. (Additionally, letting users customize their html freely might give preferential placement to their own ads, or move the paid ads to undesirable areas of the page.) Some ad networks even require that they are the sole source of ads on the site, to ensure their dominance.
I'd be willing to not have my OWN ads on my site to keep my current web design. Can they be negotiated into premium service options? I have my own web space but I like it here and wanted to use both as my main home. But this direction is looking unacceptable for me.
- Getting free hosting AND being able to make money off it with ads is kind of like double-benefits. It doesn't make business sense for Wowio to let people have that double dipping. Not only would they be paying for ALL hosting and support costs associated with your comic (as well as intangible elements like hosting a community your comic takes advantage of), they'd be letting you make money off that privilege (and at the same time, potentially reducing THEIR sole source of profit as mentioned in the first point). Yes, sure, it's nice for people to be able to make money off of webspace they get for free, but I can see how that would be considered too much. Perhaps you can't have both. In that respect, different levels of subscription might be a solution.
I totally understand. But if a subscription service is NOT offered then all our hard work on web designs are in vain. I and other have put a lot of work into them for myself and for several other people in this community.
If I can't have my web design here it will greatly effect how much presence I'll put into this site once I get back onto my feet. Especially since I'm willing to compensate them with subscription service just because I like the community here so much.
I'm glad that all of this has been explained, though I think it might have been a good idea to include all this information in the original post regarding the new site rather then reducing the DD community to a band of pitch-fork weilding maniacs :/ Just my opinion, unless Skool and Oz just found out about all this stuff or something, then that's excused.
I'm not too fussed about the HTML codes going, though I'm a little bummed I don't get to keep my custom header/title art that I love. As far as I can tell, its all very understandble with the ads and site upkeep and whatnot, thoooouuuuuugh still a tad disappointing, but, we'll get used to it I suppose. The idea of having different levels of subscription is disappointing, but bearable if it came to it and once again, understandable, Deviantart has the same basic idea.
as for the name change, I'm currently thinking like this for some reason to make myself feel better about it:
When it became clear that DrunkDuck's party animal ways were a danger to the community, and after a particularly bad black out that lasted several days, Quail and his faithful friends the Admins decided that an intervention was in order, and called on Wowio to help. Drunkduck was admitted to AA and began to follow the 12 step programme until he decided that he would never again be reffered to as the "Drunkduck". He wanted to call himself the "Sobered up Mallard" but that was deemed confusing and he settled for just calling himself "The Duck." He now has a fondness for lemonade, hence the colourscheme. Its sad that the Duck can no longer be the party animal that he was, but he will live, he will live.
I get the points about "ads" especially generic kinds of ads – BUT link exchanges are key to webcomic networking. It would be terrible to lose "top list" and other exchange connections. They are very much integrated into webcomics, and the community spirit especially. Some require links back (like TomGeeks and most toplists). Please do not alienate DDers by cutting us off from these wonderful networking and community groups.
I'm not sure why customizable html is a problem. Most other places keep it without hassle and police it fine. Can't they just disallow whatever it is they are afraid of in it?
But if they insist on re-inventing the wheel by nixing html for the sake of whatever new customization thing they are using, this is my wish list of "essentials" that I deem necessary for an actual webcomic site rather than a generic image gallery:
~ Link exchanges. – I don't mean revenue ads; I mean linking with webcomics and webcomic lists. These are how I (and I assume others) actually get hits/readers. Without them, DD would be a self contained little ball and eventually implode. ~ My own buttons, backgrounds, and other site graphics. We are "artists" after all. ~ Extra content pages – for story background, character bios, etc. If you have to limit the number of these, put ads on them, and have a special non-html editor for them, so be it. (It sucks to have to start from scratch just because the site was remodeled, but if that has to happen, I guess it has to happen. :P ) ~ Our comic forums. I don't use them but some do. ~ Be able to link to other outside pages (like facebook and deviantart accounts and reviews or other points of interest for our comics) ~ Webcounters/trackers. I have become rather spoiled by knowing where my readers are coming from – geographically and on the web. DD has only page stats, which do not track this. Many of us use outside services. ~ Maybe our "recommended" lists on the page as an option? They kinda try that with the "Homepage" feature here, but the code doesn't work on regular pages. It's not a "necessity" since it doesn't even work properly here, but it would be neat.
So… To sum up. I'd like the ability to ~ Get readers/promote my site. ~ Keep readers. ~ Interact with readers. ~ And have stats on my readers to better able me to do those other things.
I'm going to get right on saving my extra content somewhere in hopes of using it in some form on the new site. I have a 900 page archive. PLEASE let me post my extended plot summary somewhere! ^_^;
As far as customized html, my web design is a slight modification of Aelwyn's CSS Template. Usedbooks also has provided coding of her design that I think several people use as the basis of their designs. I'm sure there are several other similar cases.
With that in mind, could the templates from that forum be used as the new Duck templates, with the ability to change color schemes and use original image files?
And for the DDers who have created one-of-a-kind designs, if they want to do this, could their designs be considered for use as modifiable templates for others?
I request that Wowio assess what's already being used and identify what if any modifications might be needed to these designs rather than have us all go the roundabout way of providing them a wish list of line items. The codes are Right There – we like them – see if they'll work. It can't be so much more work than writing brand new code and then trying to sell it to everyone who was already happy with what they had.
One of my concerns is that Wowio wants to line up all of these ducks in a very homogeneous manner for marketing purposes, which would certainly make marketing easier, but would severely dampen the spirit of diversity and camaraderie that is one of the greatest attractions of Drunk Duck. Killing the Duck that lays the golden egg
(still hatin the egg, but maybe they'll get the reference)
I don't like giving that much information out. i just want to post feed back. The fact that i'm a pretty frequent user of drunkduck should count as something.
A comic needs to be of a certain level of popularity to make any money off ads, the vast majority of comics on DD do not hit that level. Perhaps business-wise they realize they are alienating a small percentage of users (albiet one which brings in traffic and contributes to the community at a generally higher level), but the numbers may be in their favor here. Upsetting a smaller number of people to ensure provision of service for everybody could just be a pragmatic decision.
I make just enough off the ads to pay for my own advertising. I break even and that works, or did.
I don't like giving that much information out. i just want to post feed back. The fact that i'm a pretty frequent user of drunkduck should count as something.
Are you talking about not using the feedback form?
Then that's silly because even Skool and I and all the programmers and designers involved in the creation of the new system are ALL using a special system to log bugs and feedback. We all have to be signed in and stuff man! The thing is this stuff needs to be worked on by actual programmers and designers working NOW so they can't look here there and everywhere for info on bugs or general feedback, it all has to be streamlined into one place so they can easily go through it.
THIS thread is worse than useless for that because it's full of higgledy piggledy user responses and stuff.
Feedback and bugs that you post in the feedback system on the new site gets seen directly by Wowio people. Any bugs or problems all get entered right into the bug tracking system that Skool and I and the rest of the programmers and designers are using so they can be worked on and fixed. ________________
@OnlyFoolsAndVikings Love the Intervention story! ^_^ ________________
-Addressing people's concerns about custom HTML: YES. This aspect needs a lot of tweaking on the new site. From what we've talked about with Lawrence, those who have custom HTML now will have their templates all carried across in full, including dub pages etc, But then those won't be changeable in the current system. So I'll keep on about changing that.
Mainly because a comic hosting site that doesn't allow users a high of control over how their work is presented does reduce its own value. Comic hosting is different from things like blog sites and news sites, These are FAR more creatively focussed spaces with extremely different requirements for both the user-base and the viewerbase. ________________
About PW ads and links to other comics, vote buttons etc: YUP. Another aspect that is under discussion. Everything People like Gene and Usebooks have said is right on the mark- comics NEED links to outside comics and sites in order to stay viable and grow in popularity. Users NEED the ability to place reciprocal links so they links to their own stuff can be placed on outside comics and that can draw traffic to them and into DD. As well as link exchanges between other DD comics. Without that ability the site WILL begin to lose traffic and the toplists will stagnate to stone. Users also need PW ads in order to make their first step towards using ads as well as subsidising their OWN advertising.
-In short, without those sorts of abilities, the site becomes something not really focussed on webcomics. It becomes more of a simplified online web-gallery system. So if anyone really cares about their work and pushing it forward, they will avoid DD. This is WHY we have to continually put the focus on these things. DD is NOT a web-gallery.
Most of the few hopes I had for Wowio beeing sincere about caring for other things then they're own thing is beeing crushed bit by bit. The way they handle all this just seems like indifference and fake politeness to me. I may still be wrong, but it's not looking any good to me. Drunkuck is beginning to lose what made me chose this site, and look like all the other ones I didn't care much about.
I've checked the new layout options they put up. Most are fine and satisfy what I need for now. And I must say that the basic template looks better than many on other sites. But I'd still like to know that I can edit it as much as I want if I feel the need to in the future. I know it can't be discussed, and probably wouldn't be listened to if it could, but I'm just saying. I actually don't really know what is the point of this thread…
I do understand the add thing, I always saw it as a big priviledge that we didn't have them on DD. But now it looks like Wowio read the forum thread about "annoying adds" and chose all those to put in there. I'm not a marketing expert, but couldn't they have adds more comics/art related? Would probably benefit them more, I think.
I'm not too fond of the namechange, but the first time I heard about "Drunkduck", I did have negative judgement, so I won't oppose a change, but "The Duck" is really ridiculous. And the egg looks like it's easter everyday.
I don't see how we can report bugs when we're told than half the site isn't functional, but not what exactly is and isn't.
I said in a previous post that I wouldn't leave unless the site get runned by assholes. I hope that's not what's going to happen. Not that my departure would change anything, but I really really really like Drunkduck, and it would be a shame to see it downgrade into the sterile place I see when I think about "The Duck".
. But I'd still like to know that I can edit it as much as I want if I feel the need to in the future. I know it can't be discussed, and probably wouldn't be listened to if it could, but I'm just saying. I actually don't really know what is the point of this thread..
The point of this tread was to introduce the new site.
-You may have missed all my posts Demontales… So I'll reiterate this: Skool and I are agents for Wowio on DD, we're also advocates for DD to Wowio. ALL these functionality and feature issues are taken VERY seriously. We ARE putting a case about those to the design and programming team. This is an extremely serious issue because it impacts directly on what sort of site this is: a webcomic host as opposed to a blogging site, or a news site, a social networking site, or a web-gallery, all VERY different beasts in their focus and the way communities use them.
At the moment the preview site probably needs to be re-set on course to webcomics and away from those other types of sites.
Your feedback, like others here is valuable in putting that case :)
Ozone, you keep referring to the site as DD - shouldn't you be using The D now?
The way the name change was handled says it all really. Apparently the change is non negotiable, has been set in stone for some time and the reasons for it must have been under discussion about for at least as long. So when do we get to hear about it? We don't - it's just there, at the top of the page.
Why not mention it way back when everybody was complaining about obtrusive ads? Why not explain they could get better advertising deals if the name was altered slightly? Would anyone have objected if it was framed in those terms, back when these decisions needed to be made?
I've been around long enough to know exactly what we're dealing with here, but I'll stop now as it's too easy to dismiss a lifetime of hard won experience as cynicism. Those who don't learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them.
I read them, and I do believe that you and Skoolmunkee are doing all you can to keep the important functionalities. I've got nothing against you two. And I still do have some hopes that the changes won't be so bad. But I don't trust Wowio much, and I don't know if their decisions can really be changed, or if they're just giving us an illusion of wanting feedback so that we stay nice and calm.
It's that the way things look now, they could go ok, or horribly wrong. And it would be sad if it was the last one.
This is how I feel, some aspects are really good but a few points are leaving a bad taste in my mouth. The worst aspect is the way things are being slipped in and when people complain it's like water off a ducks back. see what i did there?
This is how I feel, some aspects are really good but a few points are leaving a bad taste in my mouth. The worst aspect is the way things are being slipped in and when people complain it's like water off a ducks back. see what i did there?
But not a drunk duck's back.
The preview site doesn't want to load for me now.
Is Wowio very set on "The Duck?" Maybe we could have a contest to come up with a new, family-friendly adjective so the community at least gets some input there.
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