Thread "Discussion on future tech - Saturday Sandbox for May 26th, 2018!" in forum "Comic Talk and General Discussion *"

Posted at 3:05PM, May. 26, 2018

Here's the topic for today - please share your thoughts in a comment!

The subject of superhuman abilities is a topic in transhumanist circles. The main issue with them is uneven distribution of the abilities, leading to people who are inherently more or less capable. It seems to be more of an issue with "invasive" mods (such as bionics) as that may well provide a better or more convenient (or more hidden?) way to get those superhuman abilities; if it was an exoskeleton or attachable brain interface, more people could use it, thus lessening the problem. Personally I feel that something should be done to keep this under control, since it IS true that a multiclassed society based on pure ability would cause problems. However, I feel the main way to avoid problems is to focus on things that anyone can use, not to stop people from gaining "superhuman" abilities. This also means working to make them affordable as soon as possible. If the former was done, I wouldn't have a problem with such bionics being regulated because the main benefit then would be that they would be harder to notice… or disable, if needed.

Posted at 7:05PM, May. 26, 2018

I see two major areas of concern when it comes to widespread use of bionics: Public safety and competitive advantage in the workplace. Neither strikes me as being of special concern.

In a physical altercation, a human with bionic enhancements has a distinct advantage over someone without them. Particularly when the enhanced human is the aggressor, this can be a bad thing. However, strength disparities are not uncommon in modern society. Men on average have a marked physical advantage over women; adults are bigger and stronger than children; younger adults tend to be fitter than the elderly. This in and of itself does not necessitate any special regulation to level the playing field with all this rampant strength disparity; it just means we take these things into account when there is an altercation. This is why it's less common for a woman to be locked up for hitting her boyfriend than the other way around.

Also, while enhanced strength disparities may amount to de facto weapons when used against a weaker individual, that does not negate their benefits. If human civilization spreads to more hostile environments like underwater and extraterrestrial locations, then the enhancements necessary to survive in some of those places immediately make them dangerous superhumans among normal people. Likewise, a normal human from Earth becomes a formidable brute when she visits the spindly bird-boned moon people. There is a difference between useful life-improving enhancements, as opposed to things that are explicitly weapons – such as a gun barrel concealed in your ulna bone or Wolverine-esque meta claws – which can easily be covered under concealed weapons statutes. No need for special regulations there.

As far as competitive advantages in the workplace, it's true that someone with a computer-enhanced brain can be more productive than her lower primate cohorts. However, I see that kind of thing as an investment in yourself. If I can pay $100,000 for a brain tweak that makes me an expert programmer, I don't see how that's any different from someone who pays $100,000 for a comp sci degree, or some other job-specific skill training. We're both even, as far as I'm concerned.

Posted at 3:05AM, May. 27, 2018

The execrable Ghost In The Shell reboot anime movies covered one interesting facet of this that I haven't seen elsewhere:
The tech wears out.
What happens when you have some piece of advanced and super expensive once cutting edge tech stuck inside you that's 15 years out of date, it's breaking down, you can't afford a replacement or upgrade, and the company that made them has long gone out of business or has superseded that old model which is now 15 generations out of date?

Maybe there's a security issue but that model is outside the support window and it's not getting firmware upgrades anymore.
…Hello Android…

Maybe the company IS still updating them but the latest firmware is buggy crap and slows it right down…
…Hello Apple…

You would NEEEEEED the government to be there to regulate that industry very heavily, unlike what happens with tech now and you see the shit we get in there.

Posted at 3:05AM, May. 27, 2018

Simple, you manipulate culture to consider such things inhuman and monstrous while using existing laws to regulate them.

I see a wild period of anything goes followed by a horrific backlash. It might even split society which in a space faring civilization keen on colonization could lead to various migrations as opposed to integration and compromise.

Then there would be fad modifications like cat ears or whiskers or tails. If weapon claws are regulated how about cosmetic claws? Just sharp enough to damage furniture but not harm anyone. Though not strictly "bionic" such implants could be mechanical but look natural.

There might be two sports systems. Enhanced versus natural humans or enhanced humans could allow a new sport like 3D baseball where one flies to the bases and you can hit balls under the players as opposed to over their heads. Or how about exo-skeleton football?

Posted at 4:05PM, May. 28, 2018

As far as competitive advantages in the workplace, it's true that someone with a computer-enhanced brain can be more productive than her lower primate cohorts. However, I see that kind of thing as an investment in yourself. If I can pay $100,000 for a brain tweak that makes me an expert programmer, I don't see how that's any different from someone who pays $100,000 for a comp sci degree, or some other job-specific skill training. We're both even, as far as I'm concerned.

What about things like:

1. Enhanced reflexes (can move and react faster and more accurately)
2. Enhanced stamina (don't need to sleep)
3. Enhanced perception/focus (don't get distracted)
4. Direct thought-level control of electronic interfaces ("native" level interaction, essentially a new level of consciousness, enables things normal humans simply can't do)

It isn't just about strength or knowledge. What about the above and other things?

What happens when you have some piece of advanced and super expensive once cutting edge tech stuck inside you that's 15 years out of date, it's breaking down, you can't afford a replacement or upgrade, and the company that made them has long gone out of business or has superseded that old model which is now 15 generations out of date?

Then I guess you have a problem? I would hope that it would just shut down and do nothing. This is a functionally that ought to be built into it.

Maybe there's a security issue but that model is outside the support window and it's not getting firmware upgrades anymore. Maybe the company IS still updating them but the latest firmware is buggy crap and slows it right down… You would NEEEEEED the government to be there to regulate that industry very heavily, unlike what happens with tech now and you see the shit we get in there.

Caveat emptor applies as always, but I agree that it isn't enough for this.

There might be two sports systems. Enhanced versus natural humans or enhanced humans could allow a new sport like 3D baseball where one flies to the bases and you can hit balls under the players as opposed to over their heads. Or how about exo-skeleton football?

I'm pretty sure this is going to happen. As it is the military is starting on using powered exosuits, so it's only a matter of time before some aspects move to the civilian market. That, and, football as it is now is causing some pretty bad brain issues so I think they have a motivation to improve safety, and while they're at it, I'm sure they'll make things "more exciting" too.

Posted at 9:05PM, May. 29, 2018

The military exosuits were only being tested and not for production and deployment as far as I know; just speculative technology and a way for robotics teams and defence industry people to make some money…

But they offer some interesting possibilities. They could allow a single person to be armed with very heavy weapons and or heavy armour impervious to small arms and heavy machine gun fire.

…But Remote operation vehicles or even autonomous machines seem to be the way things are going.
Why put real humans in harms way with the assistance of experimental advanced technology when you can just replace them with a machine instead? It's cheaper overall and the technology is simpler.

Posted at 2:05AM, May. 30, 2018

One option being considered for military exo-skeletons is something as simple as cargo handling. Another is for the guy who controls the ROVs. An exo-skeleton would allow him to carry all kinds of control units for them which today are all hand carried or stuck in a vehicle or remote location.

But Bob Heinlein was right all those years ago in Starship Troopers; you will never replace the ground-pounding infantry man no matter how fancy the gear. There are some things a guy with a gun can do that no amount of sophisticated programming can allow a machine do. They can sure help, but they'll never replace.

By the way in the story "Waldo" Heinlein was among the first writers to come up with an exo-skeleton for human use. (If not the first)

Posted at 6:05AM, May. 30, 2018

I think the only reason they really did cargo hauling was as a proof of concept, not for a practical use scenario. Investing hundreds of millions in a finicky bit of bleeding edge tech just so you can have a slightly easier way of unloading a truck?
The US military is wasteful, true but even they would baulk at something like that. Especially since it'd be a pain in the bum to ship anywhere, take up a lot of space and be a pain to put on…

You have to load it into the truck each time, pull it out when you get there, unpack and climb into it… "Oh crap, forgot to charge it…" hunt around for the spare batteries… they're flat too! Spend 3 hours charging them from the truck… And so on.

A small winch and trolley will work a little better.
Maybe specialise loading gear would be good for special units but not as a general thing. It's just a pointlessly wasteful misuse of potential. Like using an Abrams tank as a tow truck (and nothing else).

Robots make more sense. And in-fact they being used more and more now by every military that can afford them, even terrorists. Ariel drones have become the norm and tracked units with machine guns, grenade launchers and cameras are used extensively too. They extend the capabilities of those grunts on the ground ;)

It goes back to at least WW2 with the German remote controlled Goliath bomb tanks. A lone soldier could kill a tank in numerous ways… a bomb, a panzerfaust, antitank rifle etc, but you had to be dangerously close and in the line of sight to use any of those methods. With Goliath you could deliver a big punch from behind better cover. And that's what robots do at the moment
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKiFUXu8Hds

Posted at 7:05AM, May. 30, 2018

The us Army is heavily invested in pallatization of cargo, roll-on roll-off containers and fork lifts. A walking forklift as opposed to one you need a flatbed to truck around would be useful. An exo skeleton would be more compact than the stuff they haul around now for cargo handling. They would being up the ammo on pallets to the loading pad and needed a huge tactical fork lift to unload to the pad. Ever try to use a palette Jack on a worn, chipped concrete pad?

And you know that Goliath units were usually supported by tanks? Supposedly a Tiger tank (often erroneously called the Bergetiger) may have been converted to specifically handle them. Obsolete Pzkpfw III were used to follow the demolition vehicle with the operator in the tank hidden nearby. But the modern rov require a bunch of guys in a HMMV. Itd be a lot easier to have one guy on foot, just like the Goliath was initially intended. Was it really any more effective than a Bangalore torpedo? And a guy with panzerfausts was nore effectivd against armor than sdkfz 303b. You think the Russianz ever allowed them to get closr enoygh to use the thing? The Russians were notorious for staying by their AT guns to the last minute as well as unlimbering them super fast. The Russians also crept up with antitank rifles to disable tanks with shots to sensitive areas. That's why the Germans had the stand off plates. They also used the zimmerit paste to keep the Russians from using magnetic mines.

The Russians covered their tanks with grab handles for tank riders. They had the infantry, the Germans didn't so they went with complex toys. I really have got to do a WW2 comic.

Now though it's a whole different world. But itd still be easier to have one guy in a suit over a HMMV full of engineers.

Posted at 7:05AM, May. 30, 2018

It doesn't take that many to run robots Bravo XD
And it's taking less all the time since things are getting more automated.

But the point was that they support the troops, keep them out of harms way (like Goliath did as opposed to line of sight weapons), they're demonstratively practical, cost effective, and their use is increasing.
While exo-suits are a LOOOOONG way off, so far off that developments in robot tech will outstrip any need for them - since they're already entrenched.

The loader idea… Sorry, I just can't see it.
Maybe in the future when other related tech has matured.

Posted at 8:05AM, May. 31, 2018

Rov are usually operated by two to four people in one light truck. Only one may ever actually control it, but it requires a whole team to operate. Some require more support and back up personnel. They haven't replaced guys on the ground, only let them see places they weren't able to safely do before.

And as someone who has unloaded trucks, an aid like this can't come soon enough.

What I see is some employers making certain enhancements mandatory.