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Gunwallace wrote:You're right. I wish my keyboard allowed me to use accents so I could type touche properly but you are correct.
Will I? Okay. Always good to know what I'll be doing next. – The Straw Man.
Yeah, it must just be a cultural difference and I can sort of see where it comes from now: You're American, that's your own history, so of course it will always have far more personal resonance to anyone from there.
Idiotic of me not to have seen that. I always miss the obvious. Always!
All countries have their own histories and myths and things central to their DNA that only someone from that culture can ever truly understand a certain way.
I mean, even with a super close country like Gunwallace's New Zealand, there's no way I could understand the relationship with the Maoris there and all the history with the treaties and wars and things from a New Zealanders perspective.
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@Product Placement-
That movie poster is AWESOME! Even the ship has horns! o_O
You didn't just make that up did you?
ozoneocean wrote:I don't know about that. I still think Bravo's position on this is nuts, and I'm a lot closer to him(geographically) than you are.
Yeah, it must just be a cultural difference and I can sort of see where it comes from now: You're American, that's your own history, so of course it will always have far more personal resonance to anyone from there.
Idiotic of me not to have seen that. I always miss the obvious. Always!
Hippie Van wrote:But that's what I said. The indians committed terrible acts of murder and mutiliation but since the whites could not respond effectively on the battlefield they set out to destroy a people and their way of life. And succeeded and would not stop when enough was certainly enough.
I don't know about that. I still think Bravo's position on this is nuts, and I'm a lot closer to him(geographically) than you are.
One side had their lives, lifestyles, and land stolen. The other side got a new place to live, although some of them also lost their lives(far fewer). Not equal.
bravo1102 wrote:To be clear, Bravo, I don't think you're nuts. I almost always respect your point of view and the research that you put into everything. I just meant that I don't understand your theory here. Your argument seems to be just that both sides did bad things, without taking into account motivations, causes, or results. The Soviet army responded to a threat, as did the natives; the white settlers created a threat, as did the nazis. Yes, both opposing armies did bad things, but we don't say "Well, the Soviets were just as bad as the Nazis." If the conclusion is just that all people are capable of terrible things and should be held responsible whether their side wins or not, then I can agree with that. If the conclusion is that because of this, neither side is worse than the other, (that there is no "bad guy") then I don't agree at all.
Stalin summed it up with his quote about one death is a tragedy, a thousand is a statistic. One white death was a horrible tragedy that the whites responded to by starving hundreds. But just because the whites won that doesn't mean that the indians were not expert practioners of terror warfare, torture and mutilation. Just because the Soviet army raped its way across East Prussia in 1945 doesn't excuse the Nazis from the horrors of the Holocaust. The fire bombing of Dresden doesn't excuse the massacres of prisoners of war by the Nazis. The destruction of Hiroshima doesn't excuse the rape of Nanking or the Bataan Death march. Or does it?
Oh screw it, yes, Hippie Van I am quite nuts. Certifible in fact. I am on all kinds of medications but it doesn't seem to help my scewed view of things.
I'd never say it was the "north American" perspective! No no no! That's what I said the thing about each culture/country (whatever) having their own histories and myths that they hold dear and why I said that even though Australia is close to New Zealand I could never understand their relationships and history with their native people like they do.
It's like this: How you respond to and view the history of your nation is also tied up wiith how you see yourself. Those things are part of the creation myths of your own culture, central to who you are as a human in your place in the world.
So people with different backgrounds can't really see things exactly the same way.
For Hippie it's stuff about fur traders, French and British settlers etc.
For Bravo there's stuff about British settlers and many wars between different groups…
Product Placement and Gullas have their Viking explorers and ancient democracy.
For me there's British and Irish settlers, explorers, etc.
But others don't see things the same way and we can't expect them too:I've probably mischaracterised all your cultures in those brief sketches and all you guys probably know about Australia are convicts. :P
I was actually just watching a documentary that ties in nicely with all this from National Geographic called Guns, Germs and Steel. It's not too in-depth, but it addresses the conflict between Europeans and Americans during the early stages pretty well. There was also a recent Cracked.com article discussing much the same subject that had a few notable points, especially so given that they're a comedy website. I'll dig it up when I have a spare moment.
And PP, since I don't really want to try and get the quotes to work right. I'd just noticed a sudden significant increase in the vitriol I've been seeing, even on normally pretty sedate and polite boards. It's mostly on other forums and sites though. Of course, any lively discussion on DD right now almost counts as something of note.
Hippie Van said: If the conclusion is just that all people are capable of terrible things and should be held responsible whether their side wins or not, then I can agree with that.That's what I meant.
Where did I read the other day that all history is "revisionism"? -in that history is constantly being sifted through and turned over, told from one perspective and then another, looked at in all sorts of different new lights constantly, one point of view or reading or theory gains favour and then another takes its place and so on and on forever.
So the history of history is constant flux. You might know all the important works on a subject but after a while that knowledge will be out of date so that all you know is the history of the history of that subject.
It's quite intriguing! ^_^
Cracked is a cracked source. I remember when they said Viking religion was basically a myth because it was all reconstructed from only a single source and nothing else, over a century after Christianity had taken over. (Snorri Sturluson)
Which was basically not even a Wikipedia level of research. It's basically equivalent of a young teen reading a kid's book on the subject and glancing at the appendix.
The reality was that not only were the old ways still very fresh in the minds of many country folk at that time, there was another massively important source in Saxo Grammaticus, as well as the contemporary accounts of Arab traders and Romans, as well as the archaeological evidence.
Cracked is a great example of writing toward a specific perspective, choosing the facts that fit. Often it can be very novel and interesting, but can't really be relied upon.
Just because the writer in question didn't check all his sources for a favorite topic doesn't mean he didn;t learn his lesson and check his sources this time out. As I mentioned earlier I didn't link to the article because I had read all the works he sourced and it is becoming the accepted canon. Much of the recent 400th anniversary work being done for Jamestown and upcoming for Plymouth all concur with what is said in the Cracked article. There is a great deal of archeology being done especially in Virginia that overturns the old views of Native Americans. My favorite one is that the great burning of forests in North America to support the slash and burn agriculture of the huge native populations may have put so much ash into the air as to contribute to global cooling in the 14th Century.
Then there's that recent aerial surveys of the Amazon River basin indicate that many parts of it appear to have been designed and just don't flow the way one would expect an aboriginial river in a pristine forest to run. The Amazon rain forest may the overgrowth of a complex system of channels and terraces for agriculture and trave, Just like the huge engineerig projects of Cohokia and the Central American Indians. These peoples quite literally moved mountains and peoples that live in harmony with nature usually don't feel a need to completely redesign the landscape. Native Americans did.
Found this strip to be strangely appropriate with the recent conversation:
ozoneocean wrote:
Cracked is a cracked source. I remember when they said Viking religion was basically a myth because it was all reconstructed from only a single source and nothing else, over a century after Christianity had taken over. (Snorri Sturluson)
Which was basically not even a Wikipedia level of research. It's basically equivalent of a young teen reading a kid's book on the subject and glancing at the appendix.
The reality was that not only were the old ways still very fresh in the minds of many country folk at that time, there was another massively important source in Saxo Grammaticus, as well as the contemporary accounts of Arab traders and Romans, as well as the archaeological evidence.
lba wrote:
And PP, since I don't really want to try and get the quotes to work right…
bravo1102 wrote:
peoples that live in harmony with nature usually don't feel a need to completely redesign the landscape.
Wow… you guys are busy while I'm gone… Just two things from me that you guys might have written in but I'm dyslexic so the long posts look like a large swirling mess and are hard to read:
1. Wasn't it the Europeans who taught the native Americans to scalp as proof that they had assassinated the people they told them to?
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2. One thing I find no one really talks about is that the first nations weren't really the first nations. There is actually a lot of proof that there were other civilizations all throughout North America (though Mexico probably has the most proof of this) earlier than the first nations. They are pretty much ultimately wiped out.
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I think the big thing I'm trying to say is that yes, history is written by those who win, not by what's right. Want proof? Richard III. But as far as I've SEEN in life (realizing entirely that given perspective no one can be 100% sure that something is true) No one in life is ever entirely innocent. The state of the First Nations reserves is appalling for anyone right now. They're actually considered "Third World" by medical schools and I'm ashamed of that. In fact, the thing that got me into aviation business management at first was trying to find a way to ship goods up to the Northern communities for a cheaper price.
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That being said, there are things that could be done by the first nations people as well that could greatly help there situation. I don't know how many stores there are up north that have near no one run them because no one wants to apply for a job. I think the big thing that worries me is that by letting our guilt (as much right as we may have for having such guilt) give aid to the first nations like we do… are we actually hurting them further by making them feel they should be entitled to such aid?
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I honestly don't know how to fix the problems in the first nations… it's a mess really… but the more I've studied it the more I've realized that "pity" never really ends well.
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Anyways… after I write a huge long post after saying how hard they are for me to read, that's basically my two cents on it… DON"T KILL ME!
Hippie Van wrote:I'd want to have shorter shifts, but if there's one thing I can count on my job(fishery) is that you can't count on how long you are going to work. Luckily our shifts have lately been very 9-5 ish (more like 7-3 but still…) but that might change when we start to work the herring and mackerel, hope they won't be red though…
First shift at my new job today. I was quite nervous but I ended up doing pretty well, I think. It's hard work, though - I'm glad it's short shifts.
On a lighter note, I'm officially admitting I'm in over my head on this Java course. I know I don't ACTUALLY need the credit but I really would love to learn how to use Java. Does anyone have any tips on how to comprehend this stuff better? I'm getting a touch confused with all these Classes and Methods and Constructors and objects etc
I don't know if I'll get rats again. They're sweet and sociable so you get attached to them, but they don't live very long. Poor little Ringo is well over 2 years old now(I'm not sure how old exactly) and his back legs don't work very well any more. It makes me so sad to see him having trouble getting around.
The first time I heard "first nations" was on "Death comes to town" (Kids In The Hall).
Australian Aboriginals are sometimes called "The First Australians". The literal meaning of those names aren't important, but the intent is. It's meant to be something assertive, positive and lend some gravitas and authority to people that have precious little: First Australians, First Nations etc.
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I went to see a Burlesque show tonight. I decided to dress up to the nines-
Silk top hat, shirt with starched front and cuffs, detachable collar, gold studs to fasten it all, black waistcoat with silk facings, a silver pocket watch on a chain in the pockets, tailcoat with silk facings, soft grey tweed Oxford bags style trousers, brown leather shoes with white canvas spats. And top top it all off a black antique cane with a silver top!
-Oh, and an overcoat over my shoulders, white satin tie around my neck, white silk scarf, and white suede gloves!
(pics in the photo thread)
It's not correct white-tie by any means, but prefect for seeing a show!.
The show was sexy, funny, and fantastic.
The stage magician came down to compliment me on my outfit after his performance, then the glamorous, sexy lady MC came down to invite me on stage as one of the "best dressed people". I one first prize as the best dressed male!
^_^
A $100 voucher at a restaurant/club.
What a night!
My head has swelled.
Banes wrote:That's terrible! This should not happen to my faithful comrade in Quackcats!!!!
That's awesome, ozone!!
In a weird contrast, I was kicked off the bus today after being mistaken for a vagrant.
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