I haven't really thought of sexism that much when it pertains to my comics. I don't really go out of my way to evade it and I don't try to place a lot of emphasis on it either. Sexism has been a visited topic in my webcomic Deadfingers. The protagonist is very much a tomboy and a tough girl in general. There are a few situations in the comic where she does find herself in situations that she otherwise might not have had to deal with had she not been female, so I guess there has been some female sexism displayed in my comic, but I could easily argue that there's male sexism too, as there have been way more male character deaths (counting main cast members and background members/villains) in the comic so far. :o
As far as my comic protagonists go, Orn in Deadfingers pretty much defies female gender stereotypes, she says and does exactly the opposite of what one would expect a female to say and do in any given situation. Whereas Roxy in Cosmos Song can possibly be described as hyper-feminine in many aspects (physically and personality wise), as she's very nurturing and womanly for the most part.
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Comic Talk and General Discussion *
How do you deal with sexism in your own work?
bravo1102 wrote:No problem. I was about to apologize. I must really be bad at getting my point across. Probably why I usually stay away from the forums. I was only trying to clarify my point and not trying to imply you were wrong.
I must apologize. I get so cranky when I am not regularly updating a comic.
binaryfaye wrote:Ha don't listen to Bravo - he's cranky all the time, not just when regularly updating comics!! *Cackle Snort* Hahaha :D
bravo1102 wrote:
I must apologize. I get so cranky when I am not regularly updating a comic.
No problem. I was about to apologize. I must really be bad at getting my point across. Probably why I usually stay away from the forums. I was only trying to clarify my point and not trying to imply you were wrong.
KimLuster wrote:Heh! So I should be taking his comments with industrial-sized grains of salt?
binaryfaye wrote:bravo1102 wrote:Ha don't listen to Bravo - he's cranky all the time, not just when regularly updating comics!! *Cackle Snort* Hahaha :D
I must apologize. I get so cranky when I am not regularly updating a comic.
No problem. I was about to apologize. I must really be bad at getting my point across. Probably why I usually stay away from the forums. I was only trying to clarify my point and not trying to imply you were wrong.
irrevenant wrote:Converting stuff from males isn't hard… depending on which figure it's made for. The daz genesis figures are pretty compatible but can lead to some odd stretching. Converting from others is possible, and not too difficult in theory, I've just never tried.
Probably a silly question, but can't you just resize male armour?
(And if the answer is 'no' I spy a business opportunity for you. :D)
Genejoke wrote:
One aspect of sexism that is harder to get away from in poser comics is sexy outfits. Well unless you model your own outfits, which I do to a small degree but it is very time consuming and the results are mixed. Trying to find premade female armoure that doesn't expose most of the upper body or have high heels is like finding a needle in a world of hay.
I would like to make some more practical armours, also some more variety in armour… but I'm not convinced my clothing modelling skills are quite there yet.
You know though, PROMOTION and sex appeal is the big elephant in the room here.
SELLING your work and promotion to people is almost as important as creating it…
Sex sells, just the impression of it. And the very essence of sex is the female form. Sexist as that notion is- the thing is that anything female tends to get a higher click and view count, escpecially if the ad or cover or whatever has cleavidge, of lipstick lips, sultry eyes…
How do you feel about the neccesity to distil your work to that for promotional purposes?
I have to say that I never had too many qualms with Pinky TA because "sex sells" was part of the message, and it doesn't fit oddly with my work, but I've seen many instances with other people's work where it IS an odd fit! Their otherwise unassuming, modest female character or characters are especially tarted up for the ads and cover image… and it's awkward because it's very out of character.
I'm trying a "sex sells" approach with the Quackcast Project Wonderful ads, just because.
Related: We have the simply stunning, gorgeous Pitface and Tantz Aerine doing the Quackcast fairly regularly now. If this was a comercial thing we'd be making promo material that featured them heavily, that's just how things are done and as someone who works somewhat in the advertising industry myself it's what I would recommend if I was advising the creators of the Quackcast.
But those two are really good firends so the idea of exploitation is repellant. Having them in Promo material is fine, but not exploitatively.
Anyway, I'm an arist, I can invent my own exploitative material. :D
FINALLY: Selling yourself to sell your work.
This is tricky because it can backfire badly. Men and women who sell thier image and sexuality in order to promote their work can be enormously successful but they can also face some pretty awful backlash. Women suffer this double standard worse than men: It's FINE if someone ELSE exploits your image, but if you do it yourself then you're evil.
So many of us, me included, have this gut reaction to pretty faces/bodies selling their work. The beter the artist looks in their promo material the worse we think of the art. We have to GET over that and appreciate it for what it is.
Somewhat of an example would be the great artist Bittertea (Ashley M Witter) of Scroch https://next.theduckwebcomics.com/Scorch/
She's a phenominal artist, godly in skill. Early on there were promo shots of her and she looked amazing too. When you (I mean myself) saw those you had to overcome jelousy in order to still appreciate the work. And unfortuatly that's a pretty universal reaction because she doesn't have any self images up generally anymore.
So using yourself to sell your work is really, really tricky unless you're a popstar -not because there's anything at all wrong with it, but because the audience you're selling to can be douchebags.
Same as Genejoke, I don't really promote my work. I don't make it for an audience. I make it because the stories in my head want out, and it's a relaxing hobby.
I can't fathom using myself to promote anything. I tried going to cons, and it was traumatic being around so many people even if no one was talking to me. I'm much better at being invisible than sexy anyway (and glad for that talent). I don't really notice when an artist is beautiful or plain or whatever, but I have apprehensions about talking to men I don't know (not sure why, minor phobia?). So if I connect a face to a work, I might be less likely to interact with the creator. I'm 95% sure that's a personal hang-up and not at all universal.
binaryfaye wrote:Tongue in cheek. My avatar says it all. I should have said MORE cranky when not updating a comic.
KimLuster wrote:binaryfaye wrote:Heh! So I should be taking his comments with industrial-sized grains of salt?bravo1102 wrote:Ha don't listen to Bravo - he's cranky all the time, not just when regularly updating comics!! *Cackle Snort* Hahaha :D
I must apologize. I get so cranky when I am not regularly updating a comic.
No problem. I was about to apologize. I must really be bad at getting my point across. Probably why I usually stay away from the forums. I was only trying to clarify my point and not trying to imply you were wrong.
Sex sells and it always will! Our cultural morays won't overcome in a few generations what a few gazillions years of Evolution, in which reproduction, in which the desire to reproduce, which is sexual desire, has ingrained into us. Our minds have figured out how to control it to some extent (choosing abstinence, birth control…) but those visual triggers in our minds get flicked on when we see human sex. Yep, yep, they sure do!
.
So, should we artists feel guilty for exploiting such a thing, knowing there's little the audience can do to avoid the pull they feel when viewing our exploitive stuff…?!!
.
I dunno… :D
.
Like Ozone said, some stories just feel out of place when including Sex Appeal. I feel that's the case with my story the Godstrain, most of the time (but not all the time… ;)). But, when that story is done, I'm strongly considering a more light-hearted, sorta-serialized thing that would include more blantant sex appeal. And I know that will likely get me a few more readers, even if my art isn't any better!
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Is it wrong of me to do it, knowing that?!
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And using self to promote stuff…? I couldn't ever do it - way too private!! And I agree that my attitude does change about people that blantantly do it. I like a touch of humility, even for the super-beautiful people…!
binaryfaye wrote:Yes, I should've avoided a blanket statement… There's exceptions to everything! I think if you're just having fun with it, as Ozone does with his costumes… but people that… Gaaahhh… ya know, it's another one of those things you just can't define! But people are smart - they almost always know when someone is just having fun vs someone who knows they have sex-appeal and are purposefully exploiting it to sell their own stuff or to get something.
Honest question, but is there a difference between using yourself to promote and doing fan-meets/conventions and stuff like that?
.
Which is funny because, like it's been said, most of us are sorta fine with using OTHER people (models) to accomplish the same thing! I guess we just intuitively know that the model is just using a gift to do a job, not to further an agenda… Weird we humans be!
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There's absolutely nothing wrong with beauty and sex-appeal - I love looking at beautiful people, of all genders! But I hate if I sense they're using it to exploit me directly! I mean if they're talking to me directly… It's like it becomes personal when they're right there in my face. But pretty models, or cosplayers that are just there to be looked at, or people on advertizments (TV, billboards…), those all feel okay!
I am selling the story, not the storyteller. There may be sexually appeal in the story and that may sell it but not my ugly face. Fine, come and meet the author, ogle some cosplay, but the creator is just some scribbler sitting at a table. Feed him and he can be most talkative but he is no more sexy than any other bald middle aged man.
I did cosplay back in the day and it was fun but now an aloha shirts and jeans is enough dressing up for a convention. Speak softly and wear a loud shirt.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with beauty and sex-appeal - I love
looking at beautiful people, of all genders! But I hate if I sense
they're using it to exploit me directly!
That too…
Of topic from selling comics- I don't like being aproached by promo models unless it's in a situation like a convention when you go IN there with the understanding you're being sold to. Having those sorts of people approach you in other situations, using their sex appeal to charm you as part of their job is REALLY very off. Your guards are down then. Not cool.
I remember this one time in a pub with a couple of good friends I was approached by this stunning blonde woman with gigantic boobs, wearing a tight white T-shirt with the name of some brand of bear on it… She had a male equivilent with her (big muslced blond guy with sculpted hair), but I didn't even notice him till after. I was just agog "Um.. blarg gag umble blarg."
I can't even remember what she was trying to promote or what she said. All I can recall is that after I realised I felt pretty crap.
It would be unfair for me to use myself to sell comics, because no one could possibly resist!
The only time I would have an issue with a comic using sex appeal to draw attention to itself is if it's done disengenuously. Like, you have your attractive female protagonist wearing next-to-nothing in a sexy pinup pose on your thumbnail or cover, but then the comic itself has nothing even vaguely resembling that inside. That's just false advertisement, dammit!
Nothing wrong with sex appeal in comics in general, though. From Gilgamesh to King Arthur to James Bond, sex has always been a staple in entertainment and literature. It's a big part of our lives, and works which don't acknowledge that facet of the human experience can come off feeling a bit empty and sterile IMO. There are places where sex appeal and sexism can overlap, but they're two very different and separate subjects.
I really don't pay much attention to whether anything in my own comics could be construed as sexist (partially because just about *anything* can be construed as sexist depending on how you look at it). I focus on trying to be as true to my characters and vision as I can be. I didn't create sexism, so it's not my job as an author to filter it out if elements of it creep into the narrative organically. I give my readers credit and assume they're mature enough that they don't need any hand-holding by me, and I'm certainly not going to handcuff my own creativity trying to conform to someone else's idea of how the world "should be" but isn't. Nothing to gain there… and it only costs me my soul.
For Christmas, I got the complete James Bond 007 box set. My dad was always a big Bond fan, and though I loved the character from the newer movies and parodies and clips, I'd never actually sat down and watched the earlier Sean Connery films.
Uhhh… yeah… Sean Connery really liked to slap the ladies around, didn't he!
El Cid wrote:Cuz women secretly love it - we're just obligated to act like we don't! *rolls eyes*
For Christmas, I got the complete James Bond 007 box set. My dad was always a big Bond fan, and though I loved the character from the newer movies and parodies and clips, I'd never actually sat down and watched the earlier Sean Connery films.
Uhhh… yeah… Sean Connery really liked to slap the ladies around, didn't he!
it's funny how many women do love it, but in the right circumstances. Although I've had my fair share of situations like this…
Harder, harder!
I don't want to hurt you.
I'm not fragile, harder.
ok (goes harder, rougher)
harder, pull my hair, slap me.
i guess…
not like that, harder.
ok
HARDER, I CAN TAKE IT, I'M NOT A CHINA DOLL.
ok
OOOW! WHAT THE HELL DID YOU DO THAT FOR?
I have 1098 pages split among 8
different comics on Drunkduck. Human sexuality is a recurring theme
in my work so I have dealt with sexism trying to use irony and
satire. For example it is ironic that every one of my comics passes
the Bechdel test yet features loads of gratuitous female nudity.
Another irony is that my characters are usually modestly clothed but
end up losing that clothing. As one character remarked in Attack
of the Robofemoids “I’m undressed in this thing more than I’m
dressed.” At first it was only women but as a sexual equalitarian I
later gave equal time to shirtless men. Even picked up a couple of
female readers with that.
Ever since I read about the Bechdel
test I have followed it in every story. There are usually equal
gender ratios of male to female mainly for my own sexist reasons of
course. All the more females to undress. They get hurt as much as the
male characters. I actually lost a reader since he disapproved of the
depiction of a female character getting killed. That’s another side
of sexism. The chivalrous idea that males have to protect females as
girls just aren’t capable of taking care of themselves. The most
painful human experience is said to be child birth and so far in
human experience that has been a solely female enterprise. Can’t
take care of themselves? Breasts are for feeding infants. Infants are
helpless and truly incapable of caring for themselves. Women come
equipped to care for them so it follows they should be able to take
care of themselves. Males in many cultures are often mere sperm
donors when it comes to parenting. The woman may be wholly owned
property of the male but the children are all hers to raise.
With roughly equal numbers of male to
female characters it is unavoidable two females will talk to each
other about plot points. So that solves the Bechdel problem. And in
many of my created worlds females take care of themselves. In one of
my created universes they are in charge since there is a lack of
males. They are not defined by the man in their life, even the
characters in relationships. I’ve done a lot of world building
asking “what if?’ and have designed cultures to reflect various
patterns of behavior, ones that are completely at variance with our
own. One is Aordian culture. It is a non-monogamous society without
marriage only temporary partnerships to produce children. The
Aordians reject our culture’s need to categorize people by their
sexuality. They say “We are not homo, hetero or bi sexual, just
sexual”
I’ve also put together hermaphrodite
and non-sexual humanoid species. Many are subtle digs at our sexual
hang-ups. Satire. In my universe Earthers are seen as being oppressed
by our sexual hang-ups. That’s why Earth has so many problems and a
reason it is so backwards. This is based on research into theories
regarding human sexual selection and sex among other species. Why did
evolution choose for specific genders rather than hermaphrodites? Why
is sexual selection so important that adaptations for it outweigh
other things among many species? And sex like eyes evolved more than
once. I keep an open mind and just ask “what if?” Characters are
reflections of their culture but have their own beliefs whether
closed or open minded.
But wait there's more to bravo's wall of text! Now he tackles his characters! This resulted in a few sprains. a concussion and a dislocated shoulder.
You know a topic like this can cause me
to get very introspective. Usually I do characters to represent
differing points of view. I like creating foils to play off one
another often for comical effect as opposed to debates and arguments.
So usually if there is a sexist character there is another more open
minded one for contrast.
My first comic was the epic fantasy Go
a Viking! There are a couple of runaway princesses in it. One is a
warrior but no one bats an eye at that only that she’s a bit too
impetuous and impulsive. That was to break the whole women can’t be
warriors thing. However another is disowned by her family for b
becoming a sorceress. Her late father is painted as very conservative
and one popular view of sorceresses is as little better than whores.
The sorceress cult does figure in the background of most of my
stories.
Annahdeism or the Cult of the Golden
Goddess is based on my research into the evidence of a goddess cult
in Europe and elsewhere in ancient times. Annah therefore has
attributes of Inanna, Isis, Astarte, Diana, Athena, Kwannon,
Morrigan, Klai and so on. In her true original form she is a magic
using warrior goddess who also is a patron of science and learning
and righteous vengeance. In fact an outlined series of novels based
on her was entitled Goddess of Vengeance. In my most recent
comic Tales of SIG there was an allusion to her cult when a
character uses one of its techniques to awaken someone in a coma.
Then came the lovable Grey Guys who
first appeared in Attack of the Robofemoids. I had ventured
into science fiction so now I could just world build cultures with
alternate views on sexuality in addition to characters. Bill, Hank
and Bob were first conceived as a two frat boy pranksters and their
older boss who is annoyed by their antics. All with very sexist
attitudes of women as mere objects for their experiments that they
love undressing. Hence Bob’s tag line “Strip them for
conversion!” There is also a human named Ostrowski who takes that
one step further being obsessed with porn and big tits.
The breast obsession continues in Mask
of the Aryans with its tag line of “Topless gladiators in
desperate combat.” It was silly nonsensical adventure. Pride in
your unadorned torso was the excuse for both genders running around
shirtless in classic fantasy “barbarian” manner. It took place in
an alternate 1960 so the reaction to bare breasted female gladiators
was typical sexist silliness. It remains my longest comic and the
only one without an ending written or even an actual script being
improvised scene by scene, but always trying to maintain the
exploitation move tongue in cheek.
The sequel Battle of the Robofemoids
expanded the universe they inhabited past the silly boob loving
exploitation science fiction movie of the first comic. A good
discussion of this comic can be found in the review on Lite Bites.
Battle of turned the tables on the Grey Guys with the
introduction of who is really in charge of their culture; the Grey
Gals. Grey Guys come from a female dominated society and are envious
of Earthers because “They’re one the few planets where men are in
charge” It also introduced the Aordians and the fact that there was
a shortage of males across humanity in the galaxy because of past
errors in genetic engineering. That way I could have more female
characters so there could be more boobs. But keeping to equal time
the comic also introduced the Robohomoid the male equivalent of the
robofemoid. You see in my universe females are the dominant sex.
That follows nature and other species where the life-giving female is
the default gender.
Tales of SIG expands the
universe to include a variation of the original series of Star Trek.
That way I can interaction between various groups like the once
sexless Falasnorians who have interbred with humans to reintroduce
gender, the Grey Guys and the humanoids of Star Trek including
boyishly charming rakes who are star ship captains, emotional doctors
and just for the heck of it both the Nimoy and Quinto Mr. Spock.
So we're doing this for the next Quackcast- as Bravo knows 'cos he's going to join us…
So Bravo, were you angling to get a massive ad for all your comics in here? :D
That will be WAY too long to read out straight man. Waaaaaaaay!
—————–
I just had a thought- most of us, pretty much ALL of us are saying why our stuff isn't sexist or even if it is we don't care.
That's all very well but how WOULD we define sexisim in our comics?
This is my take:
1. The Bechdel test is a very poor guide. It's basically a minor indicator because context is more important.
- Most female character heavy comics will easily pass the test, whether it's a harem comic, or anything else.
2. Chraracter outfits, relative showing of skin based on gender, and he amount of "sexy" poses is another poor guide, because once again context is the most important factor.
- If in a superhero comic the males are all heroic and fighty while the females just perform sex-pose after sex-pose on every panel they're in then you have a problem! If the male characters are in poses that traditionally accentuate THEIR sexual traits though, then something else is going on
- The Hawkeye project was moronic. Male figures and female figures have very different poses to best show their assets because each gender's assests are in completely different places and theur bodies are different so gender swapping sexy poses doesn't point out the innaproprateness of the pose, rather it will always look automatically dumb because it's being done by the wrong body shape.
3. Gender roles ARE an important factor. If all the women characters are mothers, nurses, secretaries, maids, cooks, strippers, prosititues etc, then you're either drawing a historical period work or you're a little bit behind the times and should take a bit of a look at yourself.
4. Gender balance- You don't have to make everything 50-50 with men and women in your comic, maybe it's a WW2 comic or it's set on a monestory or a girl's school or something… Context is a big thing here. But if it's a modern setting and it's not a specialised situation then you should consider balancing things out a little. Think about the fact that the comic reading audience is split about 50/50 these days- do you really want to alienate half of them by giving them no representation…
5. Bad sterotypes - This goes on from the last one. If their IS a woman in the gang that's great… but is she a token? Is she a sterotype? Is she there to be eyecandy? If the answer is yes to any of those points then it's a sexist work.
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