Thread "Happy 2019! General discussion thread" in forum "Comic Talk and General Discussion *"

Posted at 6:05AM, May. 15, 2019

Ironscarf wrote:
bravo1102 wrote:

For people who didn't know about oranges, it was not even it's own color but a kind of red.

Am I right in thinking the colour was named after the fruit, rather than vice versa?

Yup. Some wags say humans couldn't discern the color once upon a time instead it's more likely they chose not to differentiate the color. Just the same it turns out the "purple " so prized once upon a time was more of a blue and precious because woad and indigo were unknown.

Posted at 9:05PM, May. 15, 2019

Colour naming is… tricky.
Remember there are also names for colours and fruits and things in different languages too XD

You could think of orange is just a kind of red… I mean it IS basically. Especially in graphic design- when people want a real bright red they actually want an orange.

Reminds me of "gold"
Do they actually want real reflective gold, a hard bright yellow, ochre, or a complex gradient of yellow, brown, orange and white made up to simulate the colour of actual gold?
Usually the answer is "bright yellow".
People are idiots.

Posted at 10:05PM, May. 15, 2019

Am I right in thinking the colour was named after the fruit, rather than vice versa?

Well the thing is Oranges are green when they are naturally ripe, turning orange if you don't eat them fresh * ….and in some parts of the world they are left that way. In western societies, they were artificially fast-ripened, so that they a: looked prettier to look at in the shop, and b: went off quicker, so you couldn't store them.
* so presumably the colour name association was only with the inside ? The name is supposed to originate from arabic .

Posted at 4:05AM, May. 16, 2019

I'm curious about ginger now. I know red hair was the norm before these distinctions arose, but how did ginger come into general usage when it's more of a beige colour? Surely it's reddish cousin turmeric would've been a better root vegetable to choose. Turmeric hair?

Posted at 2:05AM, May. 17, 2019

BearinOz wrote:
Am I right in thinking the colour was named after the fruit, rather than vice versa?
Well the thing is Oranges are green when they are naturally ripe, turning orange if you don't eat them fresh * ….and in some parts of the world they are left that way. In western societies, they were artificially fast-ripened, so that they a: looked prettier to look at in the shop, and b: went off quicker, so you couldn't store them.
* so presumably the colour name association was only with the inside ? The name is supposed to originate from arabic .

Most people didn't eat them fresh. They were shipped throughout the Mediterranean and Europe and had lots of time to get orange. The name came up in the Middle Ages when such things as fresh fruit was picked to ripened during shipping.

And Ozoneocean is right about the names of colors being very relative anymore. It was so much easier collecting the plants yourself and mixing true hues. :D :D

Posted at 3:05AM, May. 17, 2019

Ironscarf wrote:
I'm curious about ginger now. I know red hair was the norm before these distinctions arose, but how did ginger come into general usage when it's more of a beige colour? Surely it's reddish cousin turmeric would've been a better root vegetable to choose. Turmeric hair?

There is great variation in the tones of red hair. Some does look ginger colored. Also once upon a time ginger was used to give hair a reddish cast. (Henna was used to give a blondish cast to brown hair as well as increasing shine and luster going back to the Egyptians)

Or it all could come from Ginger on Gilligan's Island having red hair.

Posted at 9:05PM, May. 19, 2019

Ginger… I wonder when that description started. I believe that it was used for cats before it was used for humans… though I can't be sure!
Red hair has always stood out because few people have it.

Thor is a famous red-head (unlike the marvel version), as was Eric the Red, and a good part of Ireland and Scotland. There were a lot of Ottoman Turkish red heads as well. In fiction we have Red Sonya, Red Sonja, Jirel of Jiroy, Jessica Rabbit… I think the historical/mythical examples were described in terms of fire and blood, not a food spice. :D

Posted at 2:05AM, May. 20, 2019

ozoneocean wrote:
Ginger… I wonder when that description started. I believe that it was used for cats before it was used for humans… though I can't be sure!
Red hair has always stood out because few people have it.

Thor is a famous red-head (unlike the marvel version), as was Eric the Red, and a good part of Ireland and Scotland. There were a lot of Ottoman Turkish red heads as well. In fiction we have Red Sonya, Red Sonja, Jirel of Jiroy, Jessica Rabbit… I think the historical/mythical examples were described in terms of fire and blood, not a food spice. :D

You're forgetting the more orangey and light brown tones that fit under "redhair " not all redheads are the Auburn to fire red like Maureen O'hara or Rhonda Fleming. Katherine Hepburn was a true ginger with the orange tint to her light brown hair. The British royal line has a streak of gingery carrot tops going back supposedly to William I.

And then there's that actor who plays the crazed wildlings on GoT. That's also red. Don't know if it's natural, but he wears it so well.

Posted at 11:05AM, May. 20, 2019

With the best will in the world, root ginger is more like the colour of blonde hair, but thinking about it, ginger ale is often more in line with the hair tones you're describing, even traditionally made without added colour. Could that be the origin of 'ginger' hair I wonder?

Or maybe ground ginger, coming from the East as part of the spice trade and looking a bit more orange than it's fresh form? That was probably how most Europeans first encountered ginger.

This is the earliest reference to ginger hair I could find, from 1785.

Posted at 8:05PM, May. 20, 2019

bravo1102 wrote:
You're forgetting

Haha, I forget nothing.

Ironscarf wrote:
This is the earliest reference to ginger hair I could find, from 1785.

That's pretty cool!
Yeah, pickled and powdered ginger was what I always thought of as ginger when I was little. I didn't even know it came from a root till I was in my teens.
So the association had always made perfect sense to me because it was an orange brown colour.

My dad's fave mention of ginger hair is from the Magic Pudding by Norman Lindsy:

"It's worse than beetles in the soup,
It's worse than crows to eat.
It's worse than wearin' small-sized boots
Upon your large-sized feet.

"It's worse than kerosene to boose,
It's worse than ginger hair!.
It's worse than anythin' to lose
A Puddin' rich and rare."

Some have accused me of having ginger hair, which has always perplexed me a bit- though my hair has looked red in some shitty digital photos. I think the camera autocorrects for my white skin tone and ends up dumping more red into the image.
My beard sometimes goes pretty gingery! But that's changeable… It also goes black, yellow blonde, and white. I'm a tabby cat.

Genetically blonde and red-heads are distinct apparently. If a person's hair goes a light brown colour, it's not "strawberry blonde" (i.e. red). There's no crossover. Red-heads and blondes have different genes for the hair.
True red-heads are the the rarest hair colour.

Posted at 10:05PM, May. 20, 2019

Genetically blonde and red-heads are distinct apparently. If a person's hair goes a light brown colour, it's not "strawberry blonde" (i.e. red). There's no crossover. Red-heads and blondes have different genes for the hair.
True red-heads are the the rarest hair colour.

Ginger : Take one brunette and one blonde. Breed the pair. You have a 50/50 (it's actually 2 in 4) chance of a redhead offspring . The reason for the high prevalance of red hair in the Celtic countries is the result of blonde Norse, then later Saxon people mating with the originally brunette-to-raven-haired original British inhabitants that go right back to the people of the "Bell beaker" culture, believed to have migrated up the Atlantic coast in antiquity.
we used to look after a little girl who had that rich red hair colour, with brown eyes. Very striking.
I've always found genetic and 'tribal' differences fascinating. You can still see specific types in regional Britain, or mainland Europe, which tends to be lost in the 'homogeny' of cosmopolitanism, and especially in 'the colonies' where our little 'coffee morning' resides B-)
The Silurian tribe of S.E.Wales (i.e. my lot, with some mongrolisation in my case) were noted by Pliny the Elder as being robust, with tight black curly hair. My 140kg son is a modern "on steroids" version…the originals are only around 1.70cm (5'7"?), and that's still pretty average over there, while he is more 1.90cm+

Posted at 12:05AM, May. 21, 2019

BearinOz wrote:
Ginger : Take one brunette and one blonde. Breed the pair. You have a 50/50 (it's actually 2 in 4) chance of a redhead offspring . The reason for the high prevalance of red hair in the Celtic countries is the result of blonde Norse, then later Saxon people mating with the originally brunette-to-raven-haired original British inhabitants that go right back to the people of the "Bell beaker" culture, believed to have migrated up the Atlantic coast in antiquity.

The bit about ginger hair isn't accurate, though the latter parts might be :)
Red hair is recessive and it means that both the mother and father must have red hair gene mutation of the MC1R.
A blonde person can't make a redhead unless that blonde has the recessive redhead trait and the partner does too.
If you only have one of those MC1R mutations you may have some red traits, but you won't be a redhead.

Celts were redheads before the Vikings and before they ever came to Ireland. The Vikings had some redheads too. The original peoples of Britain DID have black curly hair but they were there before the Celts came, mixed and colonised.

Posted at 1:05AM, May. 21, 2019

You folks are so English. Not looking past your own little islands. :D

Indo-irannians from Central Asia some went east and some went west. Groups in Ukraine may have been over 10% redheads 3500 years ago. The genetic marker spread west, the peoples took up Indo-European languages and eventually interbred with Celts.

The Scythians were described as red haired. So there are groups of people all over Asia to include India with red hair. And they used saffron and henna to increase the color and we know the Egyptians used henna.

I know I've read that ginger root was also used at some point for hair color. But it seems ginger hair is pretty much British English. Remember I said it could all come from Ginger on Gilligan's island being a redhead. 😄😂

You know the marker for red hair is shared with Neanderthals. Some say it came from them tens of thousands of years ago.

@ozoneocean: that reddish cast to your hair could have just been the result of using a henna shampoo or conditioner.

I'm stuck with my pre Indo-European curly dark hair. and every once in a while I have this irresistible urge to build monoliths.

Posted at 4:05AM, May. 21, 2019

Celts were redheads before the Vikings and before they ever came to Ireland. The Vikings had some redheads too. The original peoples of Britain DID have black curly hair but they were there before the Celts came, mixed and colonised.

Hmmm…. there's much contention among palaeontologists and the like about the "migration of the Celts".
I was brought up on the idea that Celtic peoples originated in, and migrated from, an area around what is now modern Ukraine, moving gradually westward….but later research couldn't find any physical or other evidence for this migration. The assumption was then that the culturehad been absorbed westward, but not that there had been a mass migration. SO I was left in a kind of mental limbo…
Then, a year or two ago, there was an interesting U.K. show about people who insisted they were "100% British !" (whatever the fuck that is) getting DNA tests. Predominantly bigots and racists, as you'd expect, it was hilarious seeing them squirm at the results….but the interesting thing, which also occurred in a separate program, was that the DNA testers, working "blind" on samples, said that if they didn't know better, they would say many of the samples came from the Ukraine ! Who knows !?

Posted at 4:05AM, May. 21, 2019

bravo1102 wrote:
You folks are so English. Not looking past your own little islands. :D

Wash your mouth out !!! I object most strongly to being called English, although to my shame I do possess some 'Saes' ancestry. I am 1/16th Spanish too, which is fine, but the Welsh part is the bulk of me (of which there is considerable !) B-)

…and "I'm stuck with my pre Indo-European curly dark hair. and every once in a while I have this irresistible urge to build monoliths." Haha, Yeah, my curly dark hair has sadly faded and diminished, in recent years. When we were younger, my wife and I discussed a 'menhir' style arbor in the garden, but it never came to fruition.

… "The genetic marker spread west, the peoples took up Indo-European languages and eventually interbred with Celts" - did you ever see a doco about what appear to be Celtic people who went the other way ? - across the Steppes to western China - a fairly natural thing for a horse people - where they have excavated remains and artefacts, including 'tartan' patterned material and similar looping tattoo designs and a local population that still throws up significant copper tops .

Posted at 5:05AM, May. 21, 2019

My apologies, I didn't know you were Cymreig. I'm actually Norman English or at least that is the lineage. The whole rest of the family has blondish hair and hazel eyes of one of the peoples of Ukraine; the Rusin so called as they are the descendants of the Kievan Rus speaking a dialect of Russian. (Also known as Slavonic as in the Slavonic Orthodox church)

I've followed the peoples of Central Asia with red hair. They go back a long way and are still there. They were often exported as slaves along the Silk Road and some were among the Janissaries. But they were more commonly Circassian and Albanian but those are language groups with red haired populations.

I did a comic featuring the Mongol empire including a red haired princess. 😊

Posted at 7:05PM, May. 21, 2019

@BearinOz, the cultural colonisation of the Celts was greater than the physical one, yeah, but the people still moved. :)

I always find the modern idea that Celts are a British Isles thing really weird, since that was just the final gasp of the colonisation, where the last ones ended up… There are Celtic ruins and legacy of their culture all over the place in Europe, France, Spain, Serbia and further afield.
The worst though is when people imagine that they were the original inhabitants and not colonisers and invaders the same as the Jutes, Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Romans, Normans…

—————–

I don't why it is but I find this comedy comic so funny :D https://next.theduckwebcomics.com/Way_of_the_Waifu/

Posted at 9:05PM, May. 21, 2019

ozoneocean wrote:
@BearinOz, the cultural colonisation of the Celts was greater than the physical one, yeah, but the people still moved. :)

I always find the modern idea that Celts are a British Isles thing really weird, since that was just the final gasp of the colonisation, where the last ones ended up… There are Celtic ruins and legacy of their culture all over the place in Europe, France, Spain, Serbia and further afield.
The worst though is when people imagine that they were the original inhabitants and not colonisers and invaders the same as the Jutes, Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Romans, Normans…

—————–

I don't why it is but I find this comedy comic so funny :D https://next.theduckwebcomics.com/Way_of_the_Waifu/

1: Yes, apparently they did.
2: So do I. I remember this German-origin Ozzie laughing uproariously (he had an amazingly 'gay' laugh B-) )when I mentioned Celtic culture in Germanic lands - he had this silly "only Teutonic" idea, worthy of the 3rd Reich - but of course the Helveti were slaughtered by the Romans, while attempting to migrate to the Basque area, and some of the finest Celtic art/artefacts are from Austria .
I'm not a big fan of humanity as a species, as they seem to be incredibly stupid, against all odds. So "we were here first" racism is just silly to me. And phrases like "Make America White Again !" would be laughable if they weren't so bloody seriously dangerous !
"where the last ones ended up" is no longer Wales, Ireland, Scotland, but Australia, New Zealand, Canada, etc. B-) I suspect there are more bagpipes in Vancouver than Edinburgh !
Bore Da !

Posted at 2:05AM, May. 22, 2019

These last bunch of posts have been interesting. Some of it I knew to a degree but it's been sort of enlightening. Especially as I am English… Well to varying degrees. And I'm partially ginger. I have dark blonde/Auburn ish hair and a technicolour beard. My lineage consists of a who knows what in the distant past but in the last five or six generations there's Italian, Spanish and more recently Ukrainian. It's from my great grandfather who was Ukrainian that I get a lot of my features. He was a political prisoner and escaped the gulags and hiked across Siberia eventually settling in England and changed his surname. See totally British, we don't want no foreigners 'ere wer English born n bred like. 😂😂😂😂 I hate that attitude, which makes the current political events in the UK particular stomach churning.

Posted at 4:05AM, May. 22, 2019

I am English… Well to varying degrees. My lineage consists of a who knows what in the distant past but in the last five or six generations there's Italian, Spanish and more recently Ukrainian.
See totally British, we don't want no foreigners 'ere wer English born n bred like. 😂😂😂😂 I hate that attitude, which makes the current political events in the UK particular stomach churning.

I agree, and…
Yeah, you're "typically" English B-)
I had mates with Huegenot, Polish, Italian and assorted British Isles ancestry. My estranged wife is 1/2 Scottish.
I've always had the belief that being a mongrel nation is a recipe for success . Especially if they're the "throw-outs" and "ne'er-do-wells" that populated the likes of North America and Australasia B-)

In my particular case, my Welsh-speaking, black sheep of the family maternal grandfather married the daughter of a 'Saes' railway worker (the shame!)….while his Welsh-speaking grandfather married a Spanish girl (so presumably they had mail-order brides, even back in Victorian times !), who apparently reverted to wearing the mantilla head-thing and all-black with Spanish lace, when she was widowed . On my Dad's side, we have a sneaking suspicion there is Jewish, a similar number of generations back, with East-enders (good clue) with what we think is an 'anglicised' name of Kingston . Otherwise it's Welsh all the way down !

I still cannot support England in rugby, regardless of opponents B-)

I'm sometimes tempted to get a DNA test in the 'hope' of finding I have some sub-Saharan African in me, which would be hilarious, along with the rest of the genetic soup.

Posted at 5:05AM, May. 22, 2019

Careful going back to determine original inhabitants can get very "unpolitcally correct "

Well you see before the Clovis point natives there were groups who may have been white Europeans.

Or there may have been black Africans in South America.

Oh, don't undermine my heritage!

Go back far enough and all our ancestors were living in Africa.

And native English? Angle, Saxon, Jute?
My family's been in America for over four centuries and I can't claim to be a native American. Don't give me native English unless you have the genealogy to prove it.(not DNA. That can end up all mixed up)

Posted at 6:05AM, May. 22, 2019

Genejoke See totally British, we don't want no foreigners 'ere wer English born n bred like. 😂😂😂😂 I hate that attitude, which makes the current political events in the UK particular stomach churning.

It gets right on my wick it does - the polar opposite of what it means to be British. Mutual respect and tolerance is one of the main values on the British citizenship test and none of these people would would have a hope in hell of passing it.

You can't get in a car and drive without passing your test, so why are they allowed to open their mouths and drivel about Britishness without passing the citizenship test? I bet most of them couldn't fashion a decent beaker from wet clay if their lives depended on it.

Posted at 9:05AM, May. 22, 2019

bravo1102 wrote:
Careful going back to determine original inhabitants can get very "unpolitcally correct "

Well you see before the Clovis point natives there were groups who may have been white Europeans.

Or there may have been black Africans in South America.

Oh, don't undermine my heritage!

Go back far enough and all our ancestors were living in Africa.

And native English? Angle, Saxon, Jute?
My family's been in America for over four centuries and I can't claim to be a native American. Don't give me native English unless you have the genealogy to prove it.(not DNA. That can end up all mixed up)

American heritage? don't make me laugh, you were all undesirables from great britain who bit the hand that feeds. Bloody traitors the lot of ye'!
As for those bloody australian criminals, the less said the better. We english folk are still the best, even though our empire has long since gone. it's called great britain that all we need. like.

Joking aside I'm sure I had a point to make…. except maybe the original inhabitants are probably extinct. nope that wasn't it. ahhh we're all tourists really, moving about coming and going, dying and being recycled. No, that wasn't it either. Maybe I didn't have a point, just like life in general.

Posted at 9:05AM, May. 22, 2019

Ironscarf wrote:
Genejoke See totally British, we don't want no foreigners 'ere wer English born n bred like. 😂😂😂😂 I hate that attitude, which makes the current political events in the UK particular stomach churning.

It gets right on my wick it does - the polar opposite of what it means to be British. Mutual respect and tolerance is one of the main values on the British citizenship test and none of these people would would have a hope in hell of passing it.

You can't get in a car and drive without passing your test, so why are they allowed to open their mouths and drivel about Britishness without passing the citizenship test? I bet most of them couldn't fashion a decent beaker from wet clay if their lives depended on it.

haha yes. just so. I think it's worrying how many people seem to be taken in by nigel farage and the brexit party.regardless of your views on brexit, those arse clowns are not the answer.

Posted at 10:05AM, May. 22, 2019

My ancestor was the younger son with few prospects sent to Virginia to earn his way in the world.

But we were not traitors, we supported the crown and lost everything for it being exiled to Nova Scotia. There was a general forgiveness after the Constitution so the family returned. One went to found Willoughby Ohio.

On my mother's side though, one of grandfather's aunts was sent to Siberia for supporting the Austrians over the Russians in World War I.

Ain't genealogy fun?